low thresholds = poor nerves??? - Page 9

I do not see that as courage, but more of an expression of drive and temperament.  I'm glad the response about putting a dog into defense with civil agaitation answered your question, then you combine that with a scent article and the beginning of scent discrimination is started for tracking.  That is one method that I use for tracking / trailing.  I'm done with the definitions.  It can be called what ever people want, fight drive, rage, courage, defense, hardness, toughness, it doesn't matter as long as it propels the dog forward into action and the desired result is the same.  I prefer to not use the word courage.  I suppose next we use "romantic" to describe a stud dog?  

vk4gsd. Courage is not lack of fear as you state,  but it is ability to overcome fear.
 Also it is not always and necessarily a trick like in your example with psychologist and person with fobia.  Yes, what you saying would not be courage. 
Courage is overcoming of present/current  fear.  Or as Susan Jeffers said: Feel fear but do it anyway.  I have seen many dogs when they were fearful but made the decision to proceed with task or action anyway.  I have seen it where it was trained or not. 

Hired dog I am saying that the dog understand that they can die and death. And  I am saying that courage is ability to overcome fear of death or pain. 
Here is an example. 
Some time ago  I was in a kennel where an old sick dog was being shot  as a means to be put down.  The rest of the dogs in a kennel were  in unusually and  absolutely subdued attitude for at least an hour.  Also when I am putting a dog down in my house where I call vet to my  house do perform the deed all my dogs after the dog is PTS are obviously "down" and depressed" I guarantee you that they know exactly what happened. 
As far as overcoming pain yes dog want s to avoid  a pain but if he does not and chooses to let say  do act  in spite of pain and perform desirable act that then is courage.  That said I will say that I do not understand your question with e collar. 

As far as SchH courage test goes I agree with Ed Frawley. However if the dog would be subject to such test without previous training and familiarization with such exercise than that would test his courage. 
Prager Hans

I think emotions/traits like Fear, Joy, Affection, Courage, Fright, Terror,  Love, Loyalty, Intelligence etc are fully applicable in case of a breed like the GSD, and every single one of these can be seen during various occasions.  This is certainly not humanizing the dog but just a recognition that this is an intelligent living creature that is fully capable of expressing these emotions/traits and is not driven purely by robot-like actions based on drive, training or instinct alone.  

Just like humans, dogs (mainly from the war-zone) do go through PTSD situations, when subjected to traumatic events.  

Dogs do overcome fear and stand up for their owner/handler when situations demand such a response, and not just purely act like a machine that is somehow programmed to act thusly, based on a drive or instinct or focused training.   Some dogs rush to hide behind the owner, clearly fearing for itself and since fear (opposite of courage) has taken over.

The tail-waggy joyfulness (coupled with an undertone of joyful whines) with which one is greeted when one gets back home, is an unvarnished display of affection and love, IMHO, and not the response from a robot or a machine setup to function in a certain manner.  The dog that is fearful (tail well-tucked under the rear-legs and into the belly) and yet stands and fights against an opponent that it certainly is not hoping to overcome, is a display of courage and not just the "defense-drive kicking in", IMHO.  A human that stands and faces big odds, in-spite of being fearful for himself, is also not having his "defense drive kick in" but is displaying courage.....just like the dog's situation above.

I would also like to say that dog which is displaying courage is not akin to mongoose fighting snake. For mongoose that IS his MO and purely his instinct. That is not courage. Courage requires act of choosing option,... to chose what is not necessary and what can be avoided or to choose  flight away from the source of danger.  Mongoose is not making such choice. That is one of his means of feeding himself - eating snakes. 
Prager Hans

The dog that is fearful (tail well-tucked under the rear-legs and into the belly) and yet stands and fights against an opponent that it certainly is not hoping to overcome, is a display of courage and not just the "defense-drive kicking in", IMHO.  A human that stands and faces big odds, in-spite of being fearful for himself, is also not having his "defense drive kick in" but is displaying courage.....just like the dog's situation above.

No!  The dog in the example you give is in fear and would only stand to fight an opponent if there was no option to escape or flee.  That is not courage at all!  We need to stop anthropomorphizing these animals.  Before we attribute grandiose traits and qualities to dogs we need to understand their behavior, drives and their reasons for acting and / or performing the way they do.  This starts in the most fundamental way with being able to read and interpret their body language and vocalizations.  

The example of the mongoose is an animal NOT displaying courage, but instinct and drive.  There are many more drives that an animal or dog operates in then simply prey and defense.  Sometimes these drives overlap and can even conflict; sometimes they are manipulated through training for an animal to perform a task that goes against instinct, self preservation and natural desire.  

I'm finished as I have nothing further to add to this thread.

How about a dog that is fearful of slippery floors, heights or loud noises.......and eventhough thesse conditions exist, still does its job?
Would this not still be courage, except without the "fight" aspect thrown in?

No!  That is a dog with environmental issues.   Certainly not the strongest dog and the dogs drives can overcome that.  If the dog works through it that is ok, and some can be exposed and socialized to get over that issue.   I do not see that as courage.  Quite the opposite. 

"No! The dog in the example you give is in fear and would only stand to fight an opponent if there was no option to escape or flee. That is not courage at all! We need to stop anthropomorphizing these animals. Before we attribute grandiose traits and qualities to dogs we need to understand their behavior, drives and their reasons for acting and / or performing the way they do. This starts in the most fundamental way with being able to read and interpret their body language and vocalizations.

The example of the mongoose is an animal NOT displaying courage, but instinct and drive. There are many more drives that an animal or dog operates in then simply prey and defense. Sometimes these drives overlap and can even conflict; sometimes they are manipulated through training for an animal to perform a task that goes against instinct, self preservation and natural desire."




Great post, absolutely right.

"Courage is not lack of fear as you state, but it is ability to overcome fear."


a dog is fearful of an environmental condition, confronts its fear and overcomes it...........

vs

a dog that is fearful of an environmental condition and is overwhelmed by the fear and never gets past it...........




by the defination of courage that Hans has used.........one would have courage and the other would not.

"We need to stop anthropomorphizing these animals."

Good luck with that!