Showlines and Workinglines are Genetically Different - Interesting Study - Page 10

LOL, fair enough, Joanro. 

I personally feel there should just be one GSD breed and if that needs to happen, I believe most of the members of the current-day show lines will need to be culled, since they won't meet the "smell test" of working dogs, which in turn is the whole point of the GSD breed, as the breed-founder intended.  

Granted, it will take some really bold and committed moves to do this whole-sale culling (especially with all of the money involved that wants to keep the status-quo going), but without that, the showline side will progressively become the laughing stock of the world, for structural and temperamental collapse, while the "AKC and the SV" will keep on trying to push the doomed status-quo.  Essentially the current day showline GSD has transformed into Golden Retrievers or Samoyeds in GSD garb, but with spookiness added in for good measure (I actually witnessed these myself, when visiting friends with GSD showlines, and I personally would never want such a dog to be anywhere near my property, regardless of how well they measure up to the "standard" as interpreted by  the knaves of the show-world).

Joanro, Blitzen clearly knows the above and she is just being defensive with her postings trying to build up the current-day showlines.   Sometimes you need to be brutally frank to get your point across, since pussy-footing around the issue and sugar-coating the problem, does not seem to be making much headway.

Momosgarage, sorry to hear that what I posted about the four varieties
of Belgian Shepherd Dog all being genetically ONE BREED misled
everyone because it "couldn't be more incorrect".

Don't want to take this thred too far OT, so I'll just say:
Tell you what, when the FCI AND THE MAJORITY OF THE WORLD'S
KENNEL CLUBS take Ms Ostrander's research seriously enough to
rewrite their Breed Standards, then I'll retract my wrong statement.

This is ONE piece of  - not very specific -  research, which no doubt AKC
and the antipodeans were very happy to see, without being too critical.
Until then, I'll just stick with my information source - the late Dr Malcolm
Willis.  Partly because that will at least explain for me the occurence of
Lakenois puppies in Malinois litters, the not infrequent appearence of
Groenendahls to Tervuren parents, etc.

From Wikipedia, Definion of a breed: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breed
A breed is a specific group of domestic animals or plants having homogeneous appearance, homogeneous behavior, and other characteristics that distinguish it from other animals or plants of the same species and that were arrived at through selective breeding. Despite the centrality of the idea of "breeds" to animal husbandry, no scientifically accepted definition of the term exists.^[1] A breed is therefore not an objective or biologically verifiable classification but is instead a term of art amongst groups of breeders who share a consensus around what qualities make some members of a given species members of a nameable subset.^[2]
.

Unless Identical twins, it is natural that GSD lines and individuals differ to a degree, even if they are of the same breed and lines. Mutations happen at a consistant rate. They can tell us when two groups stopped interbreeding or when one group divided.  Two SL populations would differ over time if apart as would two WL populations even if they all still had the traits everyone desired.

This is a good topic. I enjoy the thread and many of the posts. 

aakay, don't presume to know what I think about this breed or my reasons for what I've posted to this thread.  It's none of my business which lines anyone chooses to own or to stop "pussy footing around" and to be "brutally frank" in my condemnation of their choices. First, I have good friends with AL's, SL's, ASL's and combos of all. I train and socialize with these people. They respect my dog, I respect theirs.I choose to not dump on them on an interent board because I might not like their dogs. Secondly I have no right to pass judgement on dogs that have accomplished a lot more than any of my dogs have. Talk is cheap, I'll take my breed advice from those who walk the walk. You seem to be able to always see SL's in your travels that are so inferior to your dogs that you don't even want them on your property. Do you have any good friends who own any GSD's other than WL's?  Do the owners of those showlines you have trashed above know how you feel about their dogs?

Wow I know I lack the knowledge of a lot of you on this board.  But I have to say that those who say that show dogs can't work as well as the working lines amaze me. (and I know that some show lines can't)  I have seen show dogs that are extremely impressive and I have seen working dogs that hit the sleeve hard but they couldn't get to stack out, and couldn't hardly be around people.  Don't you think that a certain amount that is being thrown on the dog is actually due to the handler and training?  If you are prejudiced against something you are going to see things sometimes even if they aren't really there.  I have seen people show me something and just be so proud of it and wonder if we were looking at the same thing.  And the opposite is true.

ak, that's a really nice looking dog in your avatar. If yours, congrats. Can you provide a list of s/l that you and your dog have kicked to the curb in trial?. Probably a long list so maybe just a link to results or month/yr. published in the mags, (UScA or WDA).

thanks in advance,
Rik

Rik,

That chicken looks cold can you get him a sweater? Sorry I know ot

Barb

     "Essentially the current day showline GSD has transformed into Golden Retrievers or Samoyeds in GSD garb, but with spookiness added in for good measure (I actually witnessed these myself, when visiting friends with GSD showlines," - aaykay
Someone whose experience is limited to observing their friend's dogs does not have the experience to be commenting on and delivering a death sentence to all conformation lines. I have seen some spooky working lines and Mals, maybe we should just get rid of both breeds. 
     

No point in separating the breed, while genetically speaking their looks & genes are different now they all are still German Shepherds but in separate varieties. It would be better for the breeds future & the general public to separate the breed into varieties within the breed. Many breeds have separate varieties, most well know is the Poodle. The Poodle is separated into; Toy, Minature & Standard. While they are all Poodles with the same standard each variety has their preference toward the standard. Each variety have their unification in temperament, health issues, drives, etc... Yet many breeds routinely / occasionally inter mix the varieties for new or fresh gene source. The offspring from such crossing are registered into the variety class that closely fits their standard. 

If the German Shepherd stay as one breed but separated into varieties; ASL, European SL & various WL's they can have their styles of the standard within their variety, studies / test geared for specific health issues within the variety, & easier for general public to educate themselves with the differences within the varieties.
if breeder wants to mix within the different varieties it's still allowed & offspring just registered within the closest variety.