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by steve1 on 17 July 2013 - 03:07
Kyto
You are missing the Point; I said how is it that you do not believe for instance the offical SV Stamp and Signiture
Stamped on the ORIGINAL PEDIGREE of the results of the Joints, If we cannot take what those people have said, Then where else can a normal person get there Dogs Joints Certified, and in any case why then does anyone bother at all to get them done when the EXPERTS findings are thrown out as incorrect? But if you Kyto looks at them then Yes , Your findings or gradings are the correct ones, that is what you are saying if you disagree with the official gradings?
Steve1
You are missing the Point; I said how is it that you do not believe for instance the offical SV Stamp and Signiture
Stamped on the ORIGINAL PEDIGREE of the results of the Joints, If we cannot take what those people have said, Then where else can a normal person get there Dogs Joints Certified, and in any case why then does anyone bother at all to get them done when the EXPERTS findings are thrown out as incorrect? But if you Kyto looks at them then Yes , Your findings or gradings are the correct ones, that is what you are saying if you disagree with the official gradings?
Steve1
by steve1 on 17 July 2013 - 03:07
Kyto
This question is just for you. You live in the same country as i do that is Belgium, So if you work your Dogs in IPO and let us say you may breed from your dogs on occasions, This is purely guess work on my part;
But if you do work in IPO and you breed from your dogs then what do you do about there Joints OFFICAILLY, Not what you think what they are; Because if the Joints of your Dogs are NOT offically graded by the Belgian or SV federations etc then your Dogs can never be Koered
Steve1
This question is just for you. You live in the same country as i do that is Belgium, So if you work your Dogs in IPO and let us say you may breed from your dogs on occasions, This is purely guess work on my part;
But if you do work in IPO and you breed from your dogs then what do you do about there Joints OFFICAILLY, Not what you think what they are; Because if the Joints of your Dogs are NOT offically graded by the Belgian or SV federations etc then your Dogs can never be Koered
Steve1
by workingdogz on 17 July 2013 - 06:07
Steve
You had asked how OFA works. Here is their website:
http://www.offa.org/
Now, a basic OFA 101, you take your dog and registration papers in to your vet.
The vet is ideally supposed to verify that it is indeed the dog that matches the paperwork,
this is done by means of tattoo or microchip. Once that's done, the dogs information
is then imprinted on the actual xray, name, DOB, AKC# etc. Once the films (digital or
old time) are developed, the OFA forms are filled out and submitted with payment either
by your vet, or by the owner, for official evaluation. Now, in a perfect world no fraud could
or would be committed, but? Not every vet actually verifies the dog to papers etc.
Hope that helps.
Now, in regards to 'trusting' official ratings etc, if one is purchasing an adult dog that already
has a rating, it will be presumably for a reasonable amount of money, it's highly recommended
that before purchase a complete and thorough health check, including but not limited to new
films of hips, elbows and spine are taken prior to purchase. Back to the topic at hand,
when one sees a dog with a missing rating of hips or elbows and said dog is advertised for
sale or as a sire/dam of a litter, does it send up a red flag? Because if it doesn't, it should!
Someone mentioned about SV not accepting OFA for elbows, I believe that still stands true,
someone feel free to correct me if I am wrong. That said, it really only applies to the korung.
There is just no valid excuse in these times to NOT xray and officially rate a dogs joints prior
to breeding, nor is there any valid excuse to use a dog with bad joints for breeding, no matter
how good he or she looks through those thick rose colored glasses you are wearing
You had asked how OFA works. Here is their website:
http://www.offa.org/
Now, a basic OFA 101, you take your dog and registration papers in to your vet.
The vet is ideally supposed to verify that it is indeed the dog that matches the paperwork,
this is done by means of tattoo or microchip. Once that's done, the dogs information
is then imprinted on the actual xray, name, DOB, AKC# etc. Once the films (digital or
old time) are developed, the OFA forms are filled out and submitted with payment either
by your vet, or by the owner, for official evaluation. Now, in a perfect world no fraud could
or would be committed, but? Not every vet actually verifies the dog to papers etc.
Hope that helps.
Now, in regards to 'trusting' official ratings etc, if one is purchasing an adult dog that already
has a rating, it will be presumably for a reasonable amount of money, it's highly recommended
that before purchase a complete and thorough health check, including but not limited to new
films of hips, elbows and spine are taken prior to purchase. Back to the topic at hand,
when one sees a dog with a missing rating of hips or elbows and said dog is advertised for
sale or as a sire/dam of a litter, does it send up a red flag? Because if it doesn't, it should!
Someone mentioned about SV not accepting OFA for elbows, I believe that still stands true,
someone feel free to correct me if I am wrong. That said, it really only applies to the korung.
There is just no valid excuse in these times to NOT xray and officially rate a dogs joints prior
to breeding, nor is there any valid excuse to use a dog with bad joints for breeding, no matter
how good he or she looks through those thick rose colored glasses you are wearing
by kyto on 17 July 2013 - 08:07
certifications are done officially, but even wen dogs get an A1 result some dogs are exluded from breeding for me, as well as we had a dog getting a b1 result and we did use her in breeding
up until today she had 2 litters resulting in 15 puppy's 11 of them we got official results from 2x a2 9xA1
she got a B1 result in belgium and we showed her pictures to several vets who came to test dogs she would have past all medical test, the only reason she got a b1 result mabe the fact she wasn't totally straight on the picture
so if vets from several diffrent countries can take the "quality" of the picture in account why not the "experts" who give the official review ofcourse they are human and humans can make mistakes
my point is you need official review but no matter what the result is it never hurts to ask for a copy of the pics that way you have proof and don't get any surprises
my dogs are always done in belgium, never in sv it's my personal opinion that sv isn't very "hard" when they look at pics thats also the reason why it's so popular to send pics to germany instead of in belgium/holland
you don't see germans send there mali pics to belgium to get certified
up until today she had 2 litters resulting in 15 puppy's 11 of them we got official results from 2x a2 9xA1
she got a B1 result in belgium and we showed her pictures to several vets who came to test dogs she would have past all medical test, the only reason she got a b1 result mabe the fact she wasn't totally straight on the picture
so if vets from several diffrent countries can take the "quality" of the picture in account why not the "experts" who give the official review ofcourse they are human and humans can make mistakes
my point is you need official review but no matter what the result is it never hurts to ask for a copy of the pics that way you have proof and don't get any surprises
my dogs are always done in belgium, never in sv it's my personal opinion that sv isn't very "hard" when they look at pics thats also the reason why it's so popular to send pics to germany instead of in belgium/holland
you don't see germans send there mali pics to belgium to get certified
by kitkat3478 on 17 July 2013 - 09:07
There is "NOTHING" worse than a person that breeds dogs known to produce HD, "nothing".
The problems you run into with having someone --ray their pet quality dog, as I have seen and heard of on a few occassions, is the vets that Can and DO, take advantage of their clients.
I have a report here now from a "highly " respected veterinary school , that clearly and plainly states,
"Dog was presented with stiffness in front right leg" cause more than likely is HD, AS German Shepherds are prone to this condition.
I said, are you freakin kidding me! Either it is, or it isn't.
Well this dog was prescribed all sorts of costly medications for quite awhile.
After several months, x-ray done and both hips and elbows were fine.
My guess is the poor dog probably had a case of Pano, as it was kept in a kennel a good bit of it's young life (something I have a real hard time agreeing is the right way to keep a pup).
My dogs have been --rayed, not certified(let the flogging begin).
I mostly won't sell a pup to someone that wants to breed. I put a great deal of time and effort into my dogs and take GREAT Pride in them.
I don't want. My dogs or my name associated with someone that don't "truly" care what they produce or where the pups are going .
The problems you run into with having someone --ray their pet quality dog, as I have seen and heard of on a few occassions, is the vets that Can and DO, take advantage of their clients.
I have a report here now from a "highly " respected veterinary school , that clearly and plainly states,
"Dog was presented with stiffness in front right leg" cause more than likely is HD, AS German Shepherds are prone to this condition.
I said, are you freakin kidding me! Either it is, or it isn't.
Well this dog was prescribed all sorts of costly medications for quite awhile.
After several months, x-ray done and both hips and elbows were fine.
My guess is the poor dog probably had a case of Pano, as it was kept in a kennel a good bit of it's young life (something I have a real hard time agreeing is the right way to keep a pup).
My dogs have been --rayed, not certified(let the flogging begin).
I mostly won't sell a pup to someone that wants to breed. I put a great deal of time and effort into my dogs and take GREAT Pride in them.
I don't want. My dogs or my name associated with someone that don't "truly" care what they produce or where the pups are going .
by zdog on 17 July 2013 - 10:07
My crazy bitch rolled her self at top speed when she went from grass to cement chasing a ball that took a funny bounce. Hurt herself pretty good. Couldn't tell then, went training that night and she was jumping on 3 legs. Took her to the vet and after a couple ortho's was told it was HD. I chuckled, I just had her OFA's done 6 months ago and they were good. I emailed the xrays to this vet along with a note telling them we wouldn't be keeping our next appointment. Took her to a real orthopedic vet and was diagnosed with CCL injury. it wasn't a quick road to recovery, but lots of rest then measured activity back to normalcy and she's as good as ever, has been for a couple years now.
by Blitzen on 17 July 2013 - 10:07
Years ago I sold an 8 week old puppy to a local couple - not a GSD, another large breed prone to HD. When they took him to the vet for his 10 day purchase exam (I required that as part of my contract) the vet pulled on his back legs and said he was going to have severe HD and would need surgery soon. At 24 months he was OFA excellent. I helped xray him and he probably had the best hips I've seen before or since. Luckily the buyer decided to switch vets. After that I asked that local buyers never use that vet.
by Blitzen on 17 July 2013 - 10:07
The opposite of the above vet is one I worked for. He owned a GSL and would breed that dog to any female. He never xrayed Blitz and only asked the owners of those females if they "walked OK" or if they ever saw them limp. No matter the response, Blitz got to breed the bitch.
by steve1 on 17 July 2013 - 14:07
Kyto
Yes, Excatly what i thought, you had to get them offically graded. What gets me most of all the Experts do not know what they are doing according to you so there are Dogs who again according to you may be passed a1 normal but really be dysplastic or a lower grade than a1 normal? but IF you grade them what you say GOES, that is the bit that i am on about. That my friend says that you are above all the experts in Germany and Belgium in your own eyes. My Female had her joints certified in Belgium, but it is causing me some sort of bother trying to get her ZW rating? simply because unknowing to me the Belgians do not do that and at the time i was unaware of this fact.
I have made my point and you have made yours, there is little use of carrying on with the differences that we think. However i will say this to you; You want to see the original x-rays of the Dam of the Pups should you buy a Pup from me, What about the Father of the Pups, Let us say i get her mated to Mr Evans Dog Bomber in the USA; that means if she has a litter of 6 to 8 Pups then i have to ask Mr Evans for 8 copies of the original X-Rays plus making out the same amount of copies for the Dam; When instead i can give you right away a Printed Copy or if you come to the house a look at the original Pedigree with the Official Stamp and signed etc plus you can then view the original Disc, but then i still have say 7 more to supply and then post out to people who may buy the pups from me, no, it is not worth it and i would never go that far. A Copy of the results and nothing else, of course this would never happen in the case of me breeding from my female as all Pups will be given away free up to the 5th Puppy as said elsewhere. You know if you cannot trust people who are trained for a job in any form of life then it really is a bad time for all of us. I really would not insult Mr Evans by even asking for a copy of the Dogs Joints,
And you can take this scenario; Lets say my Girl and the father of the Pups are IPO 3, well not saying they will be, but you could just as easy dispute that they had earned there IPO 3 and perhaps should not have passed the grading; What do you want then to see them perform for you to say YES or NO, they have or not have passed? you get where i am coming from i hope
Steve1
Yes, Excatly what i thought, you had to get them offically graded. What gets me most of all the Experts do not know what they are doing according to you so there are Dogs who again according to you may be passed a1 normal but really be dysplastic or a lower grade than a1 normal? but IF you grade them what you say GOES, that is the bit that i am on about. That my friend says that you are above all the experts in Germany and Belgium in your own eyes. My Female had her joints certified in Belgium, but it is causing me some sort of bother trying to get her ZW rating? simply because unknowing to me the Belgians do not do that and at the time i was unaware of this fact.
I have made my point and you have made yours, there is little use of carrying on with the differences that we think. However i will say this to you; You want to see the original x-rays of the Dam of the Pups should you buy a Pup from me, What about the Father of the Pups, Let us say i get her mated to Mr Evans Dog Bomber in the USA; that means if she has a litter of 6 to 8 Pups then i have to ask Mr Evans for 8 copies of the original X-Rays plus making out the same amount of copies for the Dam; When instead i can give you right away a Printed Copy or if you come to the house a look at the original Pedigree with the Official Stamp and signed etc plus you can then view the original Disc, but then i still have say 7 more to supply and then post out to people who may buy the pups from me, no, it is not worth it and i would never go that far. A Copy of the results and nothing else, of course this would never happen in the case of me breeding from my female as all Pups will be given away free up to the 5th Puppy as said elsewhere. You know if you cannot trust people who are trained for a job in any form of life then it really is a bad time for all of us. I really would not insult Mr Evans by even asking for a copy of the Dogs Joints,
And you can take this scenario; Lets say my Girl and the father of the Pups are IPO 3, well not saying they will be, but you could just as easy dispute that they had earned there IPO 3 and perhaps should not have passed the grading; What do you want then to see them perform for you to say YES or NO, they have or not have passed? you get where i am coming from i hope
Steve1
by steve1 on 17 July 2013 - 14:07
workingdogz
It seems the ways over here are a little more complicated than in the USA in getting joints certified?
If i was buying an older Dog then Yes i would want to see the x-rays, and then ask a reputable Vet to look at them who is in the know before i bought the dog. But i am talking about if a person buys a Pup from you and the person buying the Puppy wants to see the Disc or x-rays of the parents first for them to decide if the joints are passed as said by the expert who graded them That is what i am on about with kyto, Puppies
As i have said all breeding Dogs should be worked to test the temperament in some form of work where the dog is put under stress and Pressure, only then will anything lying underneath come out. Plus they should be joint graded Hips Elbows and Spine as per normal; if the Dog has been Koered so much the better, It means it has been phisically show graded as well;
None of the above is without a fair bit of time and a lot of work but for me i have the satisfaction of knowing i am doing my best for the breed before i start breeding, and that is the only thing that really interests me.
Steve1
It seems the ways over here are a little more complicated than in the USA in getting joints certified?
If i was buying an older Dog then Yes i would want to see the x-rays, and then ask a reputable Vet to look at them who is in the know before i bought the dog. But i am talking about if a person buys a Pup from you and the person buying the Puppy wants to see the Disc or x-rays of the parents first for them to decide if the joints are passed as said by the expert who graded them That is what i am on about with kyto, Puppies
As i have said all breeding Dogs should be worked to test the temperament in some form of work where the dog is put under stress and Pressure, only then will anything lying underneath come out. Plus they should be joint graded Hips Elbows and Spine as per normal; if the Dog has been Koered so much the better, It means it has been phisically show graded as well;
None of the above is without a fair bit of time and a lot of work but for me i have the satisfaction of knowing i am doing my best for the breed before i start breeding, and that is the only thing that really interests me.
Steve1
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