merles shepherd? - Page 6

CelticGlory:  TY.  Interesting.  Can happily believe that "Fig 107" could 
be an ancestor of the Australian Koolie, Kelpie, Australian Cattle Dog / Blue Heeler
(or for that matter the red merle dogs in that breed), developed in Australia;
or of the 'Australian' Shepherd, developed in America.  Still don't see PROOF
that he also featured among the early beginnings of the German Shepherd
Dog, but hey ho, pre-Registration systems, who knows ?

Sidenote : do wish people would not refer to "tiger spotted"
dogs ... never been a tiger with anything but stripes !
(unless anybody knows different ???)


We had a thred about the AAH a while ago (general consensus
seemed to be it was a crock).

Too right Max - or the SV, or the Phoenix Soc for that matter - could
not stop some German herdsmen continuing to 'do their own thing';  
any more than registered Border Collie people can stop the
production of Working Sheepdogs, or Welsh Collies.  But the dogs that
they produced did not have to go into the new breed's stud book and
registration system.  As I understand it, there was never a Register or Stud Book
for 'German collies / sheepdogs', which seems to have been a catch-all term
for 'pre-Max' dogs wherever there were Dog Shows, whatever colour, etc., they were.

Hundmutter... I bet "tiger spotted" dogs would be an apt description of the other rescue dog pictured on this thread... The "tiger" adjective refers to the color of a tiger, IMHO, black and "orange" or tan in the case of dogs.

I have to get a photo of the dane puppy at puppy class last night, she's a merle/brindle. And honestly the colors are a mess! So i guess she would be tiger spotted for real. Since her spots have stripes.
Sort of like the Brindlequin dane on thsi page.
http://www.all-about-great-danes.com/images/brindlequin-great-dane.jpg

Too right, I always wondered about some of the mixes that show up in shelters; for example, Huck (the original dog in this thread) could have been bred with any type of sheepdog or even Dane that carries merle and bred back to a GSD. What amazes me is his non-white collared-merle color, the only white is his forehead and that is faint so you would have to zoom in to see it. The other is cream that is on him (almost a smoky like cream color). Who in their right mind would give this handsome devil up? The rescue refers to him as a XL Large GSD, which means he's over 100lbs. I'm sure they are strict on who would get this boy (not someone who would want him just for his color either; although, he's handsome with his color!), they also adopt out of state, so I hope he finds the right home someday!

I posted a reply to CelticGlory which definitely showed up on the
thred, but since then appears to have vanished overnight !

So, to recap:  Would not worry about the lack of a white collar,
have seen several merle Border Collies, and some Rough / Smooth
(Scotch) Collies, over the years which had very little white on them.

Yes Huck is incredibly handsome, and I wish him the best of 'forever'
homes.

Plus:  Bee, would have preferred it if they referred to "Leopard spotted",
makes a lot more sense !  [I like your OT post, btw]

I am able to read the old style german print. Some of the merle looking dogs are referred to as French Shepherd, Pyrenees Shepherd and a 3rd one I couldnt figure out as the print was to fuzzy when enlarged.

OK, and where (anywhere) does it suggest Max v Stephanitz
used anything other than GERMAN's sheep dogs in his develop-
mental matings ?  If, in his original book, he illustrated some 
point about sheepdogs generally, or other countries' dogs in
particular, with pictures [of French shepherds, or whichever]
does that mean they were types  ALL used to mould the German
Shepherd Dog ?  Does anybody seriously think he would use, say,
a Pyrenees Shepherd or its ancestors, as part of his breeding plan,
when he had all the working stock in Wurttemberg and Thuringia
​to select from ?  Especially just to mix in the merle coloration,
which he would anyway reject later ?
 

Collie mixes almost always have a white tail tip.

Margaret N-J

Hello
I now own that dog Huck, pictured at the top of this discussion. I welcome any and all opinions photos impressions, guesses, experiences anyone has about the coa type and the vbreed combination. Here is a longish journal of what he has done since I took his leash from the rescue person at 2pm Monday  September 19th. Let me know what your impressions are or if you need clarification on any of the descriptions.

I am a retire LE K9 trainer and hander my bonafides can be viewed here, the page has gone unchanged since the K9's retirement  but shows his work, training, finds and awards.

http://www.hup.org/stryker.html

our CV is here

http://www.hup.org/cv.html

Huck's WSGSR page is here

http://www.sheprescue.org/Huck%20von%20Haren.html

and here is the "journal"


I just adopted Huck Von Haran, now Huck Von Hanan.... ;o). He is amazing, nice solid bone with well angled joints and well set musculature all of which is in perfect proportion to all those aspects. Here is what I have learned about him since 2pm Monday the 19th;
He is very strong, very.
He has no fear of new or challenging environments such as, heavy traffic, slick floors, noise, horns, shopping carts, 10 billon watt 50 lb bass boom speakers or ambulance lights and siren.

He is extraordinarily agile and well balanced. He climbed up onto the ledge of the hotel room AC unit (8 inches wide)and turned around like he was related to Nadia Comineci.
He has a strong reaction to obstructions such as brick walls and closed doors. If he has a room of 800 sq ft he will immediately go to the perimeters(walls) and will stop at the door and then attempt to scent through the cracks and will paw at the strike plate.
If he is out walking and there is open pace everywhere except for a wall on one side, he immediately "challenges" the wall, wants to go over it.

His prior training, if any, did not include leash work and he does not appear to have any familiarity with the command words used in basic obedience. He reminds me of a dog I once saw that had an oner that spoke French and that was the only language he responded to. It is a different kind of refusal to obey a command from a dog like that, than what you see when it is a dog that is just giving you and your obedience commands the 1 toed paw wave.... so to speak.

He is adept at reading human body language. He will not approach or look at people who stiffen or look away from him or give all the usual signals that they don't like dogs.
He will respond immediately with softened ears and wagging tail when people smile at him, look at him talk to him and reach for him. He likes both men and women, but definitely responds more quickly and openly to men..

He is a counter surfer extraordinaire, puts many greys, wolfies and other tall sighthound breeds to shame. He is mainly curious as he does not pull food down if available only things (so far) like facial cleansers, hair brushes, and lotion. (large scents)

He will climb on a bathroom counter, into a bathtub, onto the AC , onto the end table and even the computer table with out a second thought, but he almost runs away if invited up on the bed, He refuses to even put a chin on the bed.

He has never been hand fed, and snapped at the treats in my hand. He did not however try to take them when not invited to do so. AND, he learned the word gentle in 2 re-enactments. He already understands the concept of "not yours" which I use as the non emergency version of LEAVE IT!!
He was not kept in the house where ever he was before and he is confused by the entire concept of doors and the directions they open and close.

He has been trained or at least freestyle conditioned to track, to trail and to follow scent to source, and he is VERY good at it. He has even worked out scent problems in the hotel room with the AC blasting (found a piece of hidden pork roast I had placed). Later that evening when I had him out for a potty break I noticed him trying to work scent so I put him on a tracking lead and let him work it. It was in the hotel parking lot right after sunset and he worked high and low air scenting, did some tracking, did some more air scenting and honed in on a dead cat on the other side of a 5 foot brick wall. For those not familiar with scent conditions and movement, the heat rising from the pavement and the rapid cooling of the air after the sun sets creates incredibly confusing scent movements, mixtures and pools. K9s trained specifically for scent work can have trouble pin pointing a scent source under those conditions. I do not know if he was trained or taught it to himself, but he definitely has the requisite "nose" and 'desire" to succeed at it. 

He has an indomitable "critter" drive, for small things, like cats, rats, rabbits, raccoons, possums, ground hogs and etc. I hesitate to say prey drive as he is not triggered by movement like a sight hound is and he doesn't have the explosive chase response or fetch drive either. He appears to use scent and visual both. 

On our long walk last night he saw what he thought was a small animal (it was the curved pipe of some gas line or other popping up out of the ground.)) He became hyper alert, started towards it, stopped with the leash correction and then froze like a pointer, but did not point. As we slowly walked toward it he was stiff legged and then began the low crouch walk you see cats do when stalking, 100 % focus. The closer we got the lower he got. His breathing was the short huffs of scent searching. When he got close enough to visually determine it was not an animal and his nose corroborated that, he just reverted back to "normal dog on a walk" mode like some one flicked a switch.

In another area, a dense hedge around a bank, he went into air scent behaviors while still on the side walk , crossed a 20 foot wide portion of parking lot- still air-scenting, then when he reached the grassy area in front of the hedge began tracking. Then he literally dove into the hedge, shoving his whole body into it so that only his spotted behind and flagging tail were visible. One of the "what ever it was" shot out the back side of the hedge, but Huck was still working something inside the hedge and had complete tunnel vision and the leash corrections and voice corrections did not even register. I really expected him to come out with a kitten or rabbit in his mouth but then a second "what ever it was" burst out about 4 feet to our left and disappeared into a sewer culvert. I will swear on a stack of bibles it was a ferret!!! But it was a dark area and a dark night and the "WIW" was moving fast and was dark brown. 
The way that Huck works scent and hunts and what triggers these behaviors leads me to believe he has been used to hunt small game, or to keep a barn and pasture free of burrowing rodents, or he learned how to feed himself on these available food sources during his time "on the loose".

It is now Tuesday afternoon and I have learned a great deal more about Huck.
He is absolutely DRIVEN to get out, to get past, over, through and/or under ANYTHING that is in ANYWAY restrictive. Based on what he's done so far, it really isn't to escape or because there is something needed or wanted on the other side, it appears he has the K9 version of OCD in this venue.

Last night he chewed through the 15 foot tracking lead I had fastened to the leg of the bed and then to his martingale collar as an added safety measure for while I slept. After that he then climbed over the upside down chair and stool I had placed in front of the AC unit so he wouldn't climb up there and then clawed through the screen in the window above the AC unit. (he had to shove open the window to do this. I had opened it about 2 inches before I went to bed)) I woke just in time to stomp a foot down on the end of the tracking lead..... he was already on the ground outside the window and if it had been 2 seconds later he would be gone.
I must pause here to express how nice the hotel people were when I reported the ripped up screen. Their first question was "is the dog OK?" My jaw just dropped, but I got a hold of myself and answered he was fine. They charged me 20 for a new screen and that was the end of it, no drama at all, we are welcome to come back anytime. ((That's almost scary isn't it??))) ;o)

I drive a Toyota Sequoia with all the back seats out and heavy duty (just shy of chain link) wire mesh that goes from floor to ceiling separating the drivers area from the rear area. This has withstood 2 Irish Wolf Hounds 2 Ibizan Hounds, 3 greyhounds and a few frantic lost dogs scooped up off the freeway. Huck, with in 109 seconds of being placed in the back of the Sequoia, had bent down the top edge of the wire mesh separator, squeezed his body through the 1 foot gap he had made between the ceiling and the top of the wire mesh, and got into the front seat area. There was nothing in the front seat area, it was his OCD about the barrier itself and having to get past it, that was the impetus for the behavior.

After seeing that, I cross tied him into the back using 2 chain leashes (he could not chew through) with one end clipped to the embedded metal loops used to secure the back seats and the other end clipped to his martingale/flat collar. One on each side. He could stand up, he could walk up and stand behind the drivers seat or he could walk to the back and look out the back window, or lie down and sleep. He could not get into the drivers area or jump out the door when opened. 
He does try to bolt through any door when it's opened, like a horse out of a starting gate! Even if it's just the bathroom door in the hotel room.

when he does settle down, he chooses a spot close to me and is instantly alert if I get up or more around and follows me closely. This is only after he has scoped out the "limits" of where ever we find ourselves. He is driven to find the perimeter of every new area. And I do mean driven, It's just inside the the survival mode level in it's intensity.


He is looking for someone, when he hears laughter he jumps up and tries to pin point the source. IMO he definitely had someone and is still actively expecting them/looking for them. I think he was some guys well respected and well cared for hunting dog that did not live in the house and was not treated like a pet. I think his OCD about barriers is how he got separated from that owner and that he has had several "owners" since then........ and again, his compulsion to get past any perimeter is how he ended up as a stray on his own or got turned in after he dug through one too many screens or tore up too many floors and doors. He is not naturally inclined to bonding, but he does respect humans and allowed me to pick him up and put him in the Sequoia when he did not want to get in. He's not feral but neither is he completely "pet level domestic" either. Typical of a kennel kept hunting dog.

I have seen not either overt or subtle tendency to protectiveness yet.





 

So, for all his quirks and idiosyncracies, is he yours forever, 'til the ravages of aging takes its toll?  I hope so. He looks like he'd be a really cool dog to share one's life with, one that's a near-constant learning experience. Congratulations on your new friend.