The Evolution of the Back of the German Shepherd Dog - Page 5

Who is the "head national judge" now?

Nice comment by SitasMom and if the dog is standing 4 square then it is easy to evaluate the straight back which is the 7 lumbar vertebrae.

My point perhaps not explained well is that most call the back the overline!!!

One more point is that some dogs --especially if out of coat show a dip behind the whithers which represents the junction between the thoracic vertebrae and the lunbar vertebrae. This, although not attractive, is normal and should not be penalized. 

This junction represents the pivot point of the skeleton and allows the animal to turn--"rear engine -back transmission-front steering 

The rear give 97% of the power for propulsion with the front contributing 3% and if the rear steps 1 meter then the front must travel the same distance--can't take 2 steps in front and 1 in the rear.!!!

Thanks,

Morton Goldfarb

I agree, I've posted many photos of my dogs, stacked and standing normally..... there is a HUGE difference.
 

Thanks for the reply... helps with my understanding..

Bravo!

It even nicks a graphic of a horse that's done the rounds on the internet showing what happens if you give a horse a modern GSD show-line shape.

This image Abby Normal posted bothers me trenendously, because it is so false.
They just made the back legs shorter and the angulation is the same. It's sensational, but makes no sense.

In the GSD, the rear bones have gotten longer, especially the lower thigh, most notably in show lines. This along with the rear hock angulation is what I think makes the dog's toes hit the ground when they hit the end of the lead. Something Ibrahim complained about. I've seen it too. but them the judges want a dog with the feet traveling close to the ground.

The dips Im not yet sure about, I've seen those in differrent places on different dogs. Dr Morton Goldfarb , can you tell me/us if you mean the dip/point where the ribcage ends and loin begins or a dip after the shoulder blades when the shoulder blades are higher than the wither?

The problem is at shows people want to stand - out not stand - ard.


weird thing is people with zero dog experience and average IQ can correctly identify the issues discussed here in about 5 minutes of looking at some pics.


it totally devalues the concept of breed expert, there is none. anyone's guess is as good as anyone else's. unless of course you can demonstrate your dog actually doing something useful.

Why do roached dogs still move with an arched back?  Why don't other herding breeds have similar backlines? Asked for in some sight hound breeds, no herding breeds as far as I know. 

As I've said here when I saw the Urma of my own dog I had to ask who it was, roached on the photo, not so in real life. I chalked it off to the way the handler set her up. She didn't have the sort of rear we are seeing on some of the Va dogs and she didn't move out with a roach.

To the best of my knowledge, no other "correct" dogs in any other herding breed or working breeds are supposed look like that.  When they do, it's considered a fault. I hope that justifying  a roach based on it's being correct for the breed (if that's the intent) is not going to cause more deviations from the FCI standard.

To me a straight back without a visible interruption means just that. Not a dip, not a roach. The angle of the line from the withers to the base of the tail is a different issue all together. Should it be level, slght sloping to the rear? Then what? Should both standards address these points in the dog in motion and the dog at rest?  Maybe the SV needs to revise the standard to define the terms "straight back" and "without visible interruption"? What do they mean? Until that happens, it's one person's opinion vs another's. AKC people will continue to be appalled by an arched backline and SV people will continue to rail against the slope. Both have too much angulation these days so that's sort of a moot point.

Does the SV support their standard with an illustrated standard? Do they hold judge's education seminars? I believe Dr Goldfarb chairs or co-chairs the GSDCA judge's ed committee - all AKC clubs are required to hold at least one of those events annually.

I continue to be amazed how so many show people can only see the faults of the lines they don't like and only the virtues of those they do. There so much more to be learned when you look at both with an open mind.

Linda Shaw - shawlein.com - has the best description of GSD toplines I have read, but her work is copywrited so I can't link it here. With a little surfing at shawlein.com you can find the section on toplines and many other interesting articles. She talks about both German and American dogs. She also generated the first GSDCA IS I believe. Enjoy....

I wouldn't take the horse graphic too seriously, it's done the rounds, and Schweikert himself put it in the article - but you are right, it doesn't truly reflect what has happened in the GSD. My belief is that the intention is to broadly indicate that it is not a functional shape for an animal required to work. Nor more, no less. If you actually increase the length of the thigh, and angulation into the deep 'U' shape that today's showline has and put that onto the rear of the horse, that would look just as dysfunctional on an animal we traditionally know to have a strong and functional construction. That's my take anyway.

If you read Louis Donald's article, he explains the dip behind the wither and the reason for it. in some dogs.

Blitzen's question is one that has always bothered me too. If the roach isn't really there and it is always a result of the stack, why do some dogs move with a straight back and some still with a curve in the spine? I have heard the explanation that it is pulling into the lead that creates it, and yet the dog above is not on a taut leash, and I have seen it still occur in free gaiting.

An ASL and a GSL, both on a tight lead, both at the same phase of an extended trot:

 

Nope, it's NOT the tight leash, it's NOT the stack, and IMO, the curved back prevents the GSL shown above from extending its front and rear legs as much as it would be able to do with a straighter back.

Blitzen, thank you for the photo of the American dog. The German dog is from Lou's article on the back. Oh, and the person that said the hind foot doesn't over-reach the front foot in the German show line the way it does in the American? This photo will prove you are wrong. Most quadrupeds have the hind feet pass in front of the front feet when moving at speed.

 

 

Hi,

 

Mr. Donald is a genius. I disagree on the GSD is a 4 power drive, 60:40. I wish he explained to us the reason behind the change over the years on the back of the GSD. Why was it developed to sloping curves ?

 

High withers result in GSD not falling on their front hand, also high withers maintains fluid movement, good front reach and non-lifting of fore leg.

In movement ASL is the CORRECT back as per origional/old standard. In movement ASL has correct high withers and correct elbow open and close front leg to ground.

 

I persobally think, WGSL front leg lifting is due to curved back and lower withers, I've been thinking about the reason why front reach is restricted in WGSL and why the lifting happens, only possible reason is the curved back and lower withers.

 

Ibrahim