Some Very Sad News for GSDS...DR Clemmons - Page 1

Dr Clemmons is leaving the University of Florida :( He is not sure, at this point, if he will go to another University or if he will join a private practice in the Gainesville area. At any rate, it would seem to be apparant that he has been driven out of DM research by the AKCCHF and the OFA DM DNA TEST, when the DM FLash Test had the same efficacy of all the major tests for DM- MRI, CSF, EMG, etc

I have become so upset i develped shingles. I have been in and out fo the hospital, as I have the rare form where more than one nerve root is affected. Right now, its 2 nerve roots and a possible third. The pain is beyond any description. I need some of Jackie's strength.  I am taking 2700 mg of gabapentin a day, plus pain killers . They say I have the shingles on the inside as well as the outside. I was told this wascaused bysevere stress.

The loss of Dr Clemmons to DM research should be a wake up call to all, as he speciialized In DM research in OUR BREED!. I am getting so many reports of GSDS found to have DM upon necropsy, that tested clear and carrier.  This is not the original ones I posted when the OFA DM DNA Test came out. These are more. I am also being notified of dogs of other breeds also being found to have DM upon necropsy, that also tesed clear or carrier.

A while ago I posted the scientific facts, showing that DM could not possibly be ALS, as Dr Coates claims. I am too weak to start going there again, as I will never change anyone's mind when their minds are made up. They said I will be sick for at least 2 more months and may have residual nerve damage. However, the loss of Dr C to the GSD is one that will have ramifications for years to come. This is a vert sad day for our breed, and it horrifies me that GSD people have brought this to fruittion. I guess the truth will be learned the hard way, later in this generation or the next generation, but by then, it will be too late. The bell has tolled.....I have no more to say. I know the OFA DM DNA Test is BS!  When one takes dogs into a study based on criteia without all the essential tests, it is easy to manipulate data to fit what you want it to be... I am beyond disgusted with people in this breed- you threw your own under the bus, supporting politics and big $$$$$$$$$$$ that was to be made by the OFA and the AKCCHF. I am done- Its impossilbe to educate people who insist on being the three monkeys- all it has done is make me sick, because I truly understand the scientific data, where most do not. I have discussed this with a promiment Dr ( human DR) in his field, I know who actually researched the SOD1 gene, and when I told him about the OFA DM DNA test for DM, and the SOD1 involvment claimed by Dr Coates and the OFA, he was incredulous that they allowed this test to be marketed. He agreed with Dr C that it cannot be proven whether the SOD1 is casual or causal as it is such a prominent gene that is invoved in many different conditions, and there is no way to tell, unless the RNA is examined  to directly link it,which it cannot be as we do not have the knowledge at this time to do so. Chances are it is a coincidental finding. IMHO, this research was published and approved by the good ole  boys club of the AKCCHF, as they all sit in peer review of each other. If this research had been done by Dr C, they would have denied its approval or publication, due to the fac that not even ONE generation was followed to see if what they said even bears out. It is apparent what they have claimed is not true, due the nmber of GSDS testing to have dm upon necropsy, when according to OFA, they never should have developed the disease and the same, it now appears, with other breeds. Congrats, folks... You really outdid yourselves, this time...

Marjorie,

 

I'm having trouble distinguishing if this is written by you or if it's quoted from Dr. Clemmons or both. Can you please clairify?

 

Thanks!

Marj, I'm sorry to hear the news about Clemmons.

When you come to FL, we'll try to meet. Take care of yourself now. Shingles is a terribly painful disease, you need to take it easy and get well as your first priority.

Here's hoping you will feel better soon...  Take care  Nan

I agree Marjorie it is a major loss for the GSD. I have come to question the validity of the test more and more, not least by listening to your arguments regarding it over the years, and the inconsistencies of clear dogs succumbing to DM.

I am sorry to hear you are so ill, and please get better soon.....the breed still needs an advocate for DM research and who better than you.

It looks like he has been stuck at Associate Professor, with no outlook to being promoted to Full Professor.  It also looks like he has been there for 30 years, so retiring and either going emeritus and/or getting his pension payments, could be a priority for him at this point in his life.  Does anyone know how long has he been at the University of Florida?  Do they have a mandatory retirement age for state employees in Florida?

Really, it doesn't look to me like he is being pushed out.  In fact, it looks like the typical career of a state school employed professor.  Which is work 20-30 years within the same pension system, turn on your pension at your personally designated retirement age, work part-time for the university thereafter and/or enter the private sector.

Marjorie,

Please take care. Hoping and praying for your health.

Please communicate my thanks to Dr. Clemmons for all that he has done to help the GSD. I put my boy Mike on a modified version of his regime and it did put a post mark into the disease giving me much more good time with him. ( Mike had late onset slow progression and was just shy of 14 when he died back in 2001)

While this may or may not be a natural progression for one who has spent a lifetime as a researcher and educator, the reality is the BUSINESS of science these days is cuthroat because of the immense amount of money that can be made with legitimate and/or bogus products and  the activities of Coates and her cohorts leave a lot to be desired in the ethical and moral department.

Anyone who spends just a modicum of time reading up on ALS and the SOD1 gene will quickly see the emperor has no clothes but unfortunately people are too lazy these days and want a quick soltuion that they can use as a marketing trumpet.

The scientific method which no one seems to pay any attention to anymore immediately threw suspicion on the usefulness of the test when of the original test subjects one tested N/N but posted for DM. Since that time the #'s have grown - I personally knew such a dog. The promoters of this "test" are also faced with the problem of explaining dogs testing as affected who have no sign of disease which they are doing by blythly claiming oh well he didn't live long enough to get the disease. A nice hypothesis perhaps but completely and totally unproven on a scientific basis. It is equally likely in fact more likely since we know that the prescence or absence of the SOD1 gene does NOT seem to be related to GSD DM that the dog simply does not have DM. I also find in interesting that these self promoters have talked dog folks from over 100 other breeds - breeds which have NEVER experienced DM in ANY form to test their dogs and low and behold we have dogs in these breeds testing as carriers and affected!!!!!!

My vet has treated a # of boxers with what they call DM ( I agree with Marjorie it is highly likely this is not classic GSD DM and the very FIRST item on any agenda should be to clarify the syptoms, etiologies and necropsy results to determine how many and what kind of disease(s) we are dealing with. Even in GSDs it is not clear if we care dealing with one disease with dissimiliar presentations - early onset very rapid decline vs late onset very slow decline that the high antioxidant protocol seems to mitigate for a period of time- or two diseases with similar external presentations.) My vet now has a client whose dog as presented with all the classic symptoms of a Boxer DM case but the dog tested N/N and the owner has drunk the SOD1 kool aid and refuses to try treatments that normally would be used because he is convinced the dog can not have the disease. Unfortunately he will probably not post him either.

A hard lesson in this life that I have learned Marjorie is people only seek and only hear the information that they want to hear. To me this defies logic , reason and science but I'm not even sure the current generations have a clear understanding or grasp of those three things especially since they seem to so infrequently use any of them.

Again, please thank Dr. Clemmons for all his hard ( and heart) work for our breed and let him know there are those of us who truly appreciate him and his work.

Here is  the link to the OFA page listing the summary results for all SOD1 DNA tests http://www.offa.org/stats_dna.html?dnatest=DM

Please NOTE there are 95 breeds who show carriers and or affected ( oh excuse me at risk). Any one who has studied the history of DM in the GSD breed KNOWS that this was known as a German Shepherd disease and was ONLY ever seen in GSDs or dogs crossed with them. DO YOU THINK THE VET COMMUNITY MIGHT HAVE NOTICED THAT IT WAS APPEARING IN A HUNDRED OTHER BREEDS AND REPORTED THAT FACT???

Also look at the stats for example Rhidgeback - total 44% N/A or A/A and almost 3,000 dogs tested. Kerry Blues 51% N/A or AA Hovawart 55%  Collie 47% Chesapeakes 55% (over 2K dogs tested)  King Charles 79% Canaan 48% Borzoi 28%  Bloodhounds 52% Aussies 49% Am Water Spaniel 86% Bernese Mountain Dogs 59% (almost 3k dogs tested)!!!!!!

Many of these breeds show a far higher presence of the SOD1 gene (because that is ALL this test does!) than GSD. IF it was related to DM they WOULD be expressing the disease AND I just think that someplace along the line the vet community would have noticed that other breeds were getting the GSD disease at a far higher rate than German Shepherds. Hmmm.

Just go down the list and look at the breeds that tested for the SOD1 gene and tell me it you think this has ANY relationship to DM. Affenpinschers??? Please!

If I were a breeder, I would err on the side of caution and test my breeding stock using use those results accordingly. I'd never use that information to eliminate a  carrier or an at risk dog from a breeding program; I would use it to not produce any at risks. I would not purchase a GSD from untested parents unless the dog itself were tested.

I would be making those choices based on personal knowledge of 3 GSD's that tested at risk with the OFA test that were diagnosed with DM at autopsy. 2 were related to the same import that was never tested to the best of my knowledge. Some of his progeny were tested; he never produced a clear per the OFA database. One ASL kennel used him extensively and so far most every GSD she owned has tested as a carrier or an at risk. The same holds true for one of the top winning ASL's. No clear progeny and some of his progeny are suspected to be currenlty suffering from DM.  I also have personal knowledge of a GSD who tested as effected using the Flash test, tested as a carrier using the OFA test. He was only 2 years old at the time of the tests, end up up having extensive surgery for some spinal issues and is doing well. It remains to be seen what the future holds for him. I keep hearing about GSD's that were tested as normal/clears that ended up with DM at postmortem, but I myself haven't seen those reports anywhere. So far that's hearsay for me..

If one takes the time to really look at the OFA database, it's not rocket science to see that the results of the tests of the listed dogs are consistent with the results of the parents and grandparents where available.

For the above reasons I feel the test has merit and is certainly worth using as one more tool when planning a breeding. OFA says that on their web page - it's a tool. What is the harm in knowing if a breeding you are planning has a chance of producing a dog that might develop DM in the future? Use it for what it's worth. Who cares who developed the damned test?

I have said this test is bogus for years. I think most DNA tests are for the people promoting it rather than for any accuracy or benefit to dog owners. Tig, thank you for your posts. Researchers are too often bought off the same way vets are by manufacturers. I think the test is worthless and have disregarded any claims to its validity. Blitzen, I disagree with you that it is erring on the side of caution to utilize the test in any decision making regarding breeding or choosing a prospect. I do understand your rationale, tho.