Breeding philosophy - Page 4

you have much faith in human nature, prolly too much for your own good. but hey i am just cynical.

imo each generation has to make it's own bandogge according to their need, in effect this is what we see.

ideology based breeding is about as helpful to the breed as breeding for points.

ignore the cynical guy.

I disagree with those who believe a dog cannot be both biddable and lazy, lacking in any work ethic.  Dogs that have a strong work ethic keep themselves busy, even when you aren't asking anything of them. They will entertain themselves as they feel the need to--yet they do have an 'off' switch when their handler requests them to shut the energy down for a period of time.

I've worked with dogs who truly had a desire and willingness to please their handlers, who learned quickly and retained what they learned, but which were just not dogs that took, a von Stephanitz described it, "...joy in the work...".  They learned and performed the tasks asked of them because they truly WERE  biddable dogs; they just didn't much ENJOY the tasks, because they just weren't athletic by nature.  Such dogs wouldn't do more than twitch an ear if a mouse ran by their noses while they were lying at rest in the house. They're the type of dog that almost acts like an old dog long before their time, because they just aren't animated.

Ibrahim, WRT why show line breeders haven't used Marin in their programs, there are likely a number of reasons for this. He is a beautifully put together dog, but solid blacks are not generally favored in the conformation ring, so this wouldn't necessarily be a dog on the radar of the European show line breeders. That this dog is in the UK, however, is probably the main reason he hasn't been used more often, though he IS used over show line as well as working line females in that country.

Dawulf is right when she points out that there are splits in a great many breeds between those that are bred for conformation and eye appeal first, and those that are bred for working ability and utility as the primary points of importance.  Off the top of my head, aside from the GSD and the Rough Collie, there's a similar divide in the Siberian Husky [show/conformation lines versus racing lines; the latter lines are often accused of having the Alaskan Husky or village dogs crossed into them--much as some of the working GSD lines are alleged to have Malinois in the background].  Nearly all of the retriever, pointer, setter, spaniel and hound breeds have conformation ring lines and field lines as well.  It's a natural progression, I believe, in any country where the population is affluent enough to keep dogs strictly for their companionship qualities and the use of them as part of one's livelihood has diminished to the point of nearly non-existent.

Working lines vs. show lines reminds me of when I was a child and my family had field line German Shorthaired Pointers, my father thought it would be fun to start showing with the AKC so he bought a show line GSP; long story short is the dog had absolutely no desire to hunt, he did alright in the ring but my father was not interested in a dog that wouldn't/couldn't do the job he was bred for, so the dog went back to his breeder.

I know some show line GSPs do equally well in both field and ring, just as some GSDs do, but when to much emphasis is placed on conformation, working ability becomes endangered, IMO. I prefer breeders whose first priority is working ability, without losing sight of the importance of conformation. But as Vk4gsd pointed out, beauty is in the eye of the beholder; a dog I find to be beautiful, you might not find to be as beautiful.

Ibrahim, please look at this clips.  not allowed to show or be called by their breed name, born to work. look at the on/off intensity, the focus, the instinct. no fanfare or titles just love of the work.

they are something between a border collie and a german shepherd in their role, built for the climate and the job - this is where beauty is if you want to talk beauty;

I think health and temperament are equaly important if either is severly lacking than ones goals are in trouble,if a dog has a desire to chase a guy down on the other side of a wall to bite him but cant get over the wall because of painful hip joints then the dog cant do his job if either is missing.Working and Showlines have drifted toooo far apart over the years, to excell in one ave or the other normally one has to make a choice is what breeding goals one has in mind, seems like very few breeders are trying to acheive both at the same time anymore.How likey is a dog of mixed show and work lines likey to win the BSP or how many mixed lines are very likey to make the VA 1 dog ? The Leeburg dog did very well in both worlds but what was that like the year 1969 ?

I seriously doubt Lasso was cowhocked. Although I never saw that dog, I have read critiques of his conformation and temperament by breed experts and none ever mentioned cowhocks. I don't see any indication of that on the photo Ibrahim posted.

There is no reason why GSD breeders can't breed dogs that look as good as they work and work as good as they look. 

there is Blitzen

lets give some real motivations that come first in many cases 

sellability

famous parents

great colours

oversized

heavy bones

big headed

etc etc.

Duke I agree that, that is pretty much what we see most of the time.  Blitzen didn't say that was the way it is but rather "No reason breeders can't".  I believe there are a few breeders who are truly trying to go for the complete on both sides.  Working and Conformation lines.  The problem is that these are usually very small breeders and get very little attention.  The ones that get all the attention are the ones with the big bucks behind them.  You can tell as soon as they pull up on the property.  And I'm not talking about conformation lines only.  Same thing is true with the working lines.  Everyone congregates around them, as if they are high profile celebrities.  And absolutely nothing in of itself is wrong with that.  It just causes those who want the total dog to be more educated and to do more research.  The main problem is there are way more people at outer edges of the pendulum swing then there are at the moderate center.  And the ones at the outer edges look with disdain at the ones in the center because  they are the minority and don't fit into either classification, and therefore are never fully accepted if they speak their true mind.

Not reasons, Duke, lame excuses motivated by snobbery and single minded opinions. Historically the breeds that thrive are populated by breeders who work together to get things done. Not this breed. It's not only show breeders, working line people are just as guilty of being kennel blind. I don't look for anything to ever change in my lifetime. It takes a very determinded and strong willed person to remain in GSD's for very long, the support is just not there in either camp.

Reggie has it exactly right....