Universal Sieger - Page 6

Panzer's Dad, that's been one of my pet peeves as well [the diminishing of the importance of the working trials as but one of the three components necessary to determine if a particular dog is worthy of reproducing]; when things shifted from the events being all about the dog's work ethic and strength in all three phases of the work, to them being all about the points, it had every bit as much of an effect on the breed as anything the Martin brothers did has had.  But what goes on with the conformation side of things doesn't help matters, when we can clearly see on the videos dogs that barely deserve to get a passing rating during the performance test be graded not even just a rating of 'sufficient', but declared to have 'pronounced' TSB--it's not helpful to anything but the bank accounts of the breeders who are producing these dogs.

Do I have a sport-line or a working line dog? No, I admittedly do not--though I also didn't buy either of my present dogs as young puppies, either; one I purchased when she was 10 months old, when her original owner realized this wasn't a dog that would get her 'high in trial' scores as well as getting V-rated in conformation [which is quite true--though I love her for who she is, despite having a pedigree with several of the showline dogs considered to be among, and produce, those strong in the work-- my current female should never have been under consideration as a brood bitch prospect, because she simply doesn't have the degree of strength of nerve  I   anyone would consider to be necessary in that role]. My other current dog is a now-10 year old rescue I initially agreed to foster, but ended up adopting when I discovered he has discoid lupus; most likely American 'backyard' pet stock breeding, kind of the Rin-Tin-tin style of old.  Time will tell whether my future dogs will be sport-line or working line dogs, because more than likely my future dogs will be rescues or dogs in need of being rehomed as well...so that will depend on what dog is in need of a good & capable home at the time I have a canine vacancy in my house [and hopefully that won't be anytime too soon].

Not having a working line dog or a sport-line dog doesn't negate my interest in seeing a return to a balance in the breed, where the differences between the dogs that place high in the breed ring and those placing high in trials are far less than they are presently. I do see the Universal Sieger program a definite step in the right direction, but don't have unrealistic expectations of how widely it will be embraced by the sport- or working-line breeders and handlers.

Cutaway, that was a great post!

Blitzen, this topic is getting very educating views, thank you for starting it

You gave me the idea when you copied me on that article, Irahim. I've long been an admirer of Kevin and Cheryl for their wonderful accomplishments with their showlines and remember Ravi and his goal of training the Universal Sieger. All people I really admire, so I think there has to be something really special about earning the Universal Sieger and Siegerin titles. 

Panzersdad:

You bring up some great points. The Universal Sieger Show and Trial is not the be-all and end-all toward the improvement of the breed.  It is however, one of the best ways to start that I can think of.  Working Dogs have to enter the Show and Show dogs have to enter the trial if we ever expect to have properly structured dogs compete for the highest working titles.  Only one male Bundessiegpruefung Winner in history has ever produced a V-A male. That was many years ago and the producer was Enno v. Antrefftal and his son Roland vom Worhabrucke. For me, the fact that this is the only example is grossly discouraging.  We should have many examples and we should have many examples of Show Dog Champions who's get have won foreign and domestic National Working Championships. Why don't we? Because both groups hide from reality and lamely profess that their way is the only way. 

Working dog enthusiasts claim they have the best of breed even though many are reticent to have their dogs be seen in local shows. They can and will proffer a plethora of gendered-up excuses to justify their hesitation to have a show judge look at and evaluate their dog. Show dog enthusiasts believe their dogs are the best examples since they had to actually do the AD, the BH and IPO thingies before they could earn that coveted V  title.  The truth is, both groups are lying to themselves. 

Nobody loves a truly good performing and really tough more dog than I. Those that question that should have known my dogs, Harry, Falk and Ines. Harry was a very tough V-dog dog way back in the day but Falk and Ines were multiple V-1s and would give any helper all he/she wanted.  Conversely, nobody appreciates a wonderful show dog more than I. Those that question that should have known my dogs; Ines, Franko and Falk.  What I, and hopefully you,  like mostly is a really tough, good performing working-show dog. We can have them in the future but we must commit to a program that rewards dog that can unashamedly compete in both venues.

Show people who hide from working competition and working people who hide from breed events are not what we need to improve the breed in this country.

Yes I remember Ravi, not a someone to be forgotten easily

 Until sport/working line breeders and handlers become more involved in the conformation end of things, and start becoming not just performance judges, but conformation judges as well, it will remain difficult for their dogs to find equal assessment in that venue.

Well said, Hexe!!!

Hard to forget Ravi's dog, Juneau, either. Lost far too young, sadly. That was a dog that would have made a worthy contribution to the breed, and I would have loved to see what he would have produced when bred to a nicely structured, hard working-line female.

but why would they want to compromise working ability to acheive a transiently fashionable  shape that is counter-productive to the working ability they desire, makes no sense.

shape and color are the easiest thing to change, good working traits take careful breeding, selecting, testing. not worth the risk.

"Until sport/working line breeders and handlers become more involved in the conformation end of things, and start becoming not just performance judges, but conformation judges as well, it will remain difficult for their dogs to find equal assessment in that venue."

Why would they have to 'compromise working ability'? If the majority of the conformation judges are unlikely to put a working line dog in the first ring, then people who already appreciate them need to infiltrate the judging circle.  The breed standard hasn't changed a bit--it's what the judges select that's changed, and that change came from within when judges were putting up the type of dog the influential breeders wanted them to put up. There's every bit as much money and influence to be found among the working line breeders, but for the most part they can't be bothered to put the time and amount of work in that it takes to get a dog ready to really compete in the breed ring in addition to all the work for the trial field--and it IS a lot of work getting a dog ready to be campaigned in the show ring, because unlike trials, that dog has to be out there and shown every weekend, moving up from placing in local club shows to the larger shows--because without being placed well in the smaller shows they won't get more than a glance at the larger ones.  I know Raiser tried to turn the ship, but this is not a battle to be won with abrasiveness--it will need to be finessed.

It can be done, if there is the will to do so.