Questions Re. Structure and Jumping - Page 15

Beautiful sire + beautiful dam = beautiful pup. Great structure for athlete.
Best for a great future with him.:-)

Gustav posted something on another thread that is very relevant to this discussion. I am sure he won't mind me reposting it here!

@Ibrahim.....the moderate type SL dog you ask about DOES have the structure to do strenuous LE or Urban SAR( urban SAR today requires a nerve base that 90% of GS tested cannot pass because of inability to work confidently on large rubble piles), the problem is with that structure they are still required to have the nerves and resiliency to work extemporaneous in any place,people, or thing. You can do this type of work with varying structural types, you cannot do this work with non working nerves.

One of the most disastrous changes to the breed, (that further strengthen the split and helped alter structure mentally and physically) was the removal of the 6 foot straight wall from the Sch/IPO routine. This led to the decline of the breed physically and mentally. Why? .....because in order to be successful at scaling it required the dog to be athletic and mental fortitude. You see you can't just jump that high, so a dog had to launch themselves so front hits the top and then have the fortitude to pull themselves over. If a dog was non athletic or too big and soft, they weren't going to be successful. If they didn't have strong character, they also could be easily deterred or intimidated by the launch. As the SL became softer and heavier, it became a very big problem for these top show candidates and was stifling the direction the SL breeders wanted to go, so they created a straw man argument of it was dangerous to health of dogs( and maybe it was dangerous to heavy, too long stifle, too much angulation type dog they were evolving into, but wouldn't that be red flag that you are going in wrong direction???), so they created the A frame that ensured these newly minted dogs could continue. Here's the rub though, if the dog has the grit and character of the WL they can still do the Straight wall, but it was not only the structure that was devolving, but also the mental hardness to do the straight wall. For those of you who have the GS in Word and picture, there are plenty of pictures of the breed navigating a 6 ft straight height and more, whether it was wall, or window or building,the book clearly demonstrates this breed was expected to have this type of athleticness and structure for this. But the SV caved in to A frame, the dogs got bigger, bulkier, more angulated, and softer as time moved on.( if they really were concerned about health, they could have put platform halfway down the other side and have the dog down at the object thrown over the wall....). Still, they could have continued to reap the benefits of excluding the dogs that didn't have the physical structure or mental fortitude to do this. Today, at every police training facility I go to they have a 6 foot straight wall, they usually have platform on the other side, but they understand the value of that piece of equipment. Evidently, before we broke into lines they understood the value, because for decades and decades this was part of the breed worthy testing schematic ....when they eliminated the straight wall I knew the hand basket was coming. Jmo

So, to sum up what he's saying, a dog requires both the nerve/courage to jump, as well as proper structure. And (I've seen Gustav say this elsewhere) nerve is more important than structure. That's a lesson I learned a long time ago when working with horses. Marion Coakes of Britain won a silver medal in Olympic show-jumping with a Connemara pony, for heaven's sake, and I've seen many $1,000 grade horses from the local horse-dealer win over very expensive pedigree jumpers. 

The Stumps, Silbersee,  have bred some SL's that served and are serving as LEO K-9's. KitKat has also and I've heard of others. Maybe those breeders just don't read the PDB? 

'The Stumps, Silbersee,  have bred some SL's that served and are serving as LEO K-9's'

There are exceptions to everything, these are out of how many thousands of breeders and hundreds of thousands of dogs? What do their dogs do? Example, are they apprehension/drug detection?

They tried to do it the right way as do some others with SL's.  Not all SL breeders breed only for looks. Those people at least deserve some recognition I think.

by Silbersee on 26 August 2008 - 22:08

Posts: 1673
Joined: Sat Aug 07, 2004 07:30 pm

A great representative of our breed has passed! Our sincere condolences to Mike!

V-Jaeger vom Silbersee SchH3 DPO2 WPO FH2 PFH KKL1 Life OFA Good 
Drug/patrol dog and V rated in 4 Sieger shows,and a loving family member...

Jaeger was put to rest yesterday, August 25 at the age of 12 and a half years, after a short and severe battle of Degenerative Myelopathy.
He and his littermates were the result of a successful combination of two Haus Dexel lines. Unfortunately for me as a breeder, Jaeger only had one sister in his litter. And Jolie, as she was lovingly called by her family was a long stockhair. Later, I went back to Jaeger for a breeding, but he only produced sons, not daughters. Jaeger's owner Mike kept son Yago vom Silbersee to continue this line. Therefore, we might try to have a couple of granddaughters sometimes next year.
Jaeger was the true epitomy of an all around golden middle dog: Besides being a great police service dog, he was V-rated numerous times in conformation and has participated in 4 different Sieger Shows. His achievements were recognized with the "Total Dog Award" during the North American Sieger Show in Pittsburgh in October 2005. Born on February 24, 1996 in my kennel and given to Mike Andrel at the tender age of 8 weeks, he was raised, trained and owner handled to SchH3, DPO2, WPO, PFH, and FH2. He received a KKL1 and V in conformation. In addition to that, he was an active drug/patrol police service dog. 

He was truly one in a million... as a lot of people say!!!
This is what breeding GSDs is all about. Dogs like Jaeger put everything in perspective! An all around talent, not extreme in either way!
Rest in Peace, sweet boy and wait at the other side of the Rainbow Bridge!
Joe and Chris Stump
Zwinger vom Silbersee
Proud Breeders
 

www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/345897.html

I believe that officer Andrel had more than one Silbersee dog as his K-9. Maybe someone here knows him and can verify that.

I don't know if Chris or Joe ever read this forum anymore of if they are still breeding.

A couple of them work/have worked as police dogs: Cora vom Silbersee (as a drug detection dog), Jaeger vom Silbersee (a lot of people know him, he received a few awards) and Jaeger's son Yago vom Silbersee, all showlines. My next litter (Iam currently expecting) is a workingline litter out of V-rated dogs, as correct conformation is very important to me. I am a fan of the universal idea. My husband (who is a federal LEO and used to create the K9-program for his force years ago) and I started out with SARDOM (Search and Rescue Dogs of Maryland), which is affiliated with ARDA. As a matter of fact, we were part of it as founding members in 1990. It did not contain bitework and calm and steady dogs were required.

Chris

A lot has changed in twenty, twenty five years. Again, the exception, not the norm.

Maybe Joan, but there are still some SL breeders who do pay attention and who are trying to breed moderate GSD's with working abilities. They just don't read or post to this forum. 

Not to totally derail from the structure and jumping, but since the derail is already started, while they may be exceptions, they do exist and since they still exist, there exists a possibility for more of them if we play our cards right (by "we" I mean all GSD enthusiasts from both SL and WL viewpoints). 

I see several showlines around my area as PSDs. And more WL/SL crosses of varying percentages. I actually ended up using a SL on Aria because of his reputation for producing PSDs in the area. I didn't set out to find a SL to breed to. I met the dog, loved him, and then started asking questions. How often do you ask about a dog and no one has anything bad to say?? I can count on one hand the number of times that has happened.  His dam was imported to be sold for police work (rather rare for a SL female), so she must've been a strong dog and stronger still to produce it. There are 4-5 sons of his departments (yes, used for apprehension as well as detection).  These are VA Ando vom Altenberger Land grandsons- not exactly unheard of.  The breeder/owner has another old SL dog (unrelated)  he uses for police because to quote him "No matter what I breed him to, they bite. I can't produce enough of them for the cities that want them." I had both dogs in my home for a week to ten days each, living with me, sleeping in my room, playing with my son, running errands, testing them on surfaces, testing their agility and body control, seeing how they act when startled or threatened, etc. No way was I going to chance breeding my girls to a nervebag who couldn't work. 

I admit, I am WL person and any time I see black and red, my brain is programmed to suspect weakness in one way or another, but I try very hard to keep sterotypes out of my mind when I'm testing a dog and I have to be fair- I don't see that many WL dogs who are "better" than these dogs in most categories. One isn't terribly agile, but he's also almost 11 years old and has been a kennel dog his whole life and has concrete marks to prove it; he's a bit stiff.

As far as temperament, one is very balanced and high drive, sweetheart with a civil side, very noble, and the other is just a monster, hard hard hard. They are old- nearly 10 & 11 respectively. I would use them both if I had anything else to breed them to (I don't really feel like more blue pups, LOL). I will say the breeder is not American, he is German, and in his 70's, so I'm sure that influences his selections a bit.

Yes, I realize I am describing only 2 dogs in a sea of many!!! Exceptions, they are!  However, my point is that there were tough SL in the not so distant past and there could be again...but ONLY if people commit to changing their perceptions and breeding for a goal beyond gaiting and blood red fur. And that includes us WL folks! We have to keep an open mind and look at the dog, not the sterotype or it doesn't matter how capable a SL is- we will pass it by on habit alone and do everyone a disservice.