Workinglines vs Showlines - Page 2

Ibrahim, the ones responding will be the few who train their dogs, I´m fine with them (at least I hope so )

You are always fine Susie, I have no doubt whatsoever, thanks in advance for this honest couragous approach to this ever lasting conflict, I like data, and you provided lot of it

iv had the pleasure of seen some good imports on work line side very impressive .but i have had in the back of my mind as good as they are they have to be the undersibles of that litter .if you breed a quality litter of pup i know i would want to keep the best of in my country its common sense .To think that any country would export the best they have you would have to be very nieve

That´s common sense...
but there are sold year after year some of our best dogs to the States and elsewhere, when breeders over here have used them for 2-4 years and are "done" with them.
Your problem is not the first, but the second generation ( only a small percentage of them "makes it", and at that point we are back to lack of knowledge, and lack of training ).

that would really depend on ones interpretation of getting the job done and workability

Duke, I´m talking about "normal" German Shepherd dogs, not about PP or single/double purpose dogs.
The German Shepherd dog was not created to be a policedog first and foremost, but in a healthy breed out of the whole population there always should be some growing up to do the job.
Think about the whole breed, not about your personal likes.

Too many people don't want to take responsibility for the kinds of dogs they keep and breed. They want to complain that they can't get the right dog because there aren't any good dogs out there. I disagree strongly with that. There are lots of good dogs out there. One simply has to know where to look and learning where to look happens with time and experience. A novice seeking to spend a year or two in the breed then start breeding is most assuredly NOT going to be acquiring la creme de la creme. Let's face facts. However...spend a few years learning, seek the help of a very experienced mentor and get their help and guidance in finding "your dream dog." I think it's a bit arrogant to even expect German breeders to send their best to other countries where the instant gratification mentality runs so deep. 

This is kind of getting off topic but I get so irritated when people complain about getting ripped off because the dog wasn't as great as they expected (or maybe it was and they simply didn't know what to do with it!) or bitching about Germans this or Germans that, they won't sell good dogs to USA, blah blah blah. Over and over I see the complaint and it is almost exclusively from those who are relative novices wanting to jump in with both feet and get the best dog right off the bat and oh, yeah...they want it cheap. They have neither the experience nor the knowledge to procure the type dog they seek, or sometimes they don't even know enough to describe what it is they want, accurately. And if the world's best dog isn't what comes off the airplane, we all get to listen to the whining and tears. 

Buyers on both sides need to do their homework, pace themselves, not expect everything to be handed to them on a silver platter (for free, of course!) and do what people used to have to do before the advent of the internet. COMMIT TO LEARNING. And when you don't know, shut up and learn some more. Then ask for help if you still don't get it. AND LISTEN to the answers, even if they aren't the ones you want to hear. 

If everyone did that for a change, we would automatically have better breeders (better educated) and ultimately better dogs. But people need to be first honest with themselves about their knowledge, then honest about the shortcomings of the dogs. The dogs are a reflection of ourselves. 

My personal experiences have been good overseas. I knew better than to try to buy a dog from Germany my first time around and sought help from someone who garnered some respect. 

Ok...sorry about that rant..........

I've had so called "show lines" and I've had a lot of so called "working lines" and the labels are a lot of smoke and mirrors.  It sickens me when I hear the idiotic "working line" buffoons rant on about those other GSD which don't conform to their idiot sport's narrow tool set required to be competitive in IPO.  The breed standard for the GSD is the same as it was it is just the interpretation that has changed and not for the better.  A good (not great) French Ring or Mondio Ring dog will run almost all of the top IPO dogs to death in a two hour work window.  The heavy 90 pound police dog that can chase a 250 pound meth addict across a muddy field and force him into submission is not going to be able to run 20 miles per day herding sheep without having a heat stroke.  The 65 pound GSD that can do S&R or herd sheep and cover 20 miles per day plus day in and day out will not be as good for police suspect apprehension in some cases.  Different dogs for different jobs.  I have had great dogs bred on "show lines" and great dogs bred on "working lines" and some great dogs bred on a combination of both show and working.  The label does not matter and a lot of the BS about form and function is so much smoke and mirrors as well.  Some of the working line dogs and some of the show line dogs have huge heads and chests that are not good for much except show regardless of what job they have to perform.  I have a 55 pound female who is a very nice dog indeed and I have a 90 pound male who is also a nice dog but they have different tool sets for different jobs.  The original GSD was a lighter and more nimble dog for herding sheep and livestock .. not a heavy bodied guard dog.  Most of the working line dogs do no work and most of the show line dogs are pets so the working line dogs are just a little better at biting something which most GSD owners have very little need for.  The icing on the cake is that the females of both the "show line" and the "working line" GSD get little respect and even less training with many females getting "breeding qualification" titles.  Below is the 1908 Siegerin at two years old .. kinda looks like a Mal doesn't she??  Would she be either a V rated show line or working line into todays political and totally artificial "show line" or "working line" world??  Prior to 1930 the GSD looked more like the Mal and then as the GSD was forced to change due to the decline in livestock and sheep herding in Germany they were changed to become a more heavy bodied general purpose guard, police and in some cases war dogs.  Most of the original GSD founding dogs from which all living GSD born today were derived weighed no more than 65 pounds male or female.  The heavy bodied GSD bred for guard duty such as in the DDR and Czech bloodlines were not what the founders had in mind.  Norbo Ben Ju is an example of going too far even though he was thought at the time to be ideal.  SIEGER 1920 V- Erich von Grafenwerth was perhaps an example of going too far in the other direction??  Erich is to my eye a misfit but in 1920 at 4 years of age he was V rated and SGR right around the breed books were closed.  I guess the GSD has changed and those who claim to be representing the GSD as the dog the founders envisioned today either "show" or "working" perhaps should face reality that the vast majority of todays championship GSD's were never envisioned by the founders.

SIEGER 1920 V- Erich von Grafenwerth

To be fair, that pic of Norbo is rather distorted...........as nearly ALL that kennel's pics are. Talk about smoke and mirrors....angle is everything. I have seen other photos of Norbo and others and they were utterly normal. 

Susie, the die hard sport/IPO people don't want normal German Shepherds. They constantly talk about hard dogs, and how a dog handles 'correction'.

    These same people think that the average joe should not own a German Shepherd and that those of us that supply 'pets', are the ruination of the breed. 

   Yeah, most of my puppies go into pet homes. I take great pride in my dogs. To date, I have three of my pups that have been given for police work. One is very well known by NY police k9 trainers due to his impressive 'work ethic' as DUAL purpose k9.

   Do I, or should I expect every one of my dogs to be that good, no I don't. And I can assure you, it has nothing to do with money, (as I donate free for police). There is no amount of money that can compensate me for the feeling i get EVERY time I get updates, and requests for another one of my dogs, OR when i am told that the sheriffs dept. Or state police told me to contact you.

   Yeah, three ain't that big of a number, but it's three more than many other breeders have working.

I feel equally as good when families tell me how much they live their dog, that it's the best dog they ever had. That the dogs are very protective of their children. These dogs have just as big a job to do , actually bigger, than the handler aggressive sport dog. And I DO feel that these are the dogs that ARE more likely to defend and protect their people.

    I find it sad how many knowledgeable 'trainers' say you are dillusional  if you think your dog would actually protect you, and not tuck tail and run.

   ANY German Shepherd of strong character, that has been integrated into a family, and has had the correct start in life, will stand strong for their family.

   You can't expect to treat your dogs like the piece of sports equiptment they are to many, and than have them be devoted to you. Or how can they be devoted when many poor dogs spend many hours crated or in a kennel, ACROSS THE YARD.

    Puppies are produced for the sole purpose of generating $$$  for the owner. They are kept also, in outside pens, many laying on cold steel bottoms, raised up, for easy clean up.

   How much devotion do you think them kinds of pupd are getting instilled in the most important first weeks /months of their lives.

   If you can t give a litter of puppies the time and care they deserve to start them out correctly, you should not be breeding dogs.

   Far to many people interested in the money end of dogs. Hell, i see ads here all the time, main selling point...IN HEAT NOW, nothing else about the dog.

   A good dog is a good dog. Funny that all the complaints of these pathetic showline dogs come from either working line people, or the poor newbie smuck that got pulled in by a fancy ad or website.

   NONE of us showline people that post here have deformed, weak nerved dogs. It is those breeders/GREEDERS that don t give a crap what they produce, only what $$$they generate that sell them.

    I myself believe in one line of German Shepherd, and thats the road I travel with mine.