Workinglines vs Showlines - Page 28

It's an open secret amongst the Shiloh Shepherd folk that one of the foundation bitches, an AKC registered GSD, was not purebred. No one is 100% sure who her non-GSD ancestor was, but the best guess seemed to be sarplaninac, a flock guardian breed:

The Big Grey Dog Story (Origin of the Texas Woolys)

 

0nce upon a time there was a man (Don Baker) that loved very big boned Shepherds. He did not like the fact that they were getting smaller, and heard that there was a litter of giants born to a sheep rancher. He went there and saw a "honey" colored female pup about 5 months old that was over 70 lbs. she was "woolly" and very broad, with huge oval bone. The rancher showed him her white mother that was not much bigger then her daughter. Then he looked at her sire, and wondered how she could be so huge. It was thought that she was a "throw back" to the big long coated Flock Guardian dogs in her ancestry. Before this man left the ranch he spotted a gigantic gray dog with flopped ears. When he asked about him, he was told that this was the biggest male born to an imported herding bitch that was shipped in bred. The dog stood about 34 (or more) inches and had to be well over 160-180 lbs. He was very "aloof" and good pictures were not taken. Also due to his long (dirty) coat he did not look very good on the one picture that my mom saw. His daughter was named Mia, and taken back to the man’s kennel, bred to his big white male, and she produced Shepherds that were very heavy boned and had long WOOLLY hair.

The GSD breeders went on a frenzy spreading stories that his dogs were not "pure' GSD's, even though the AKC papers said so, because they looked more like a Pyr then a Shepherd. They accused him of many weird things, but the truth is simple, even though a GSD was listed as Mia's sire, even her owner figured out that somehow she made a visit to that big gray dog ;-) She was bred several times, as were her daughters, and a very large son, her owner tried to form a new strain of Shepherd & call them "Texas Woolly's" but the idea never made it. He moved back east & continued to inbreed on his lines, with only one outcross (and that is another story) before a friend of his tried crossing his lines to the Shiloh. This cross both to Smokey & Shane seemed to work very well, since the pups gained more of the Shepherd "look" back to compliment his lines, and the Shiloh' s gained more bone.

Since 2 inbred outcrosses provide more SIZE, the offspring were giants again. Who was this huge gray dog? Mom (Tina Barber, Shiloh breed founder) has spent over a decade trying to find that answer. Her first impression made her think of the Sarplaninec, then during more searches, other possibilities came, and went. Guess no-one will ever know for sure, and Mia is so far back in the lines that it really does not matter, unless too much inbreeding is done, and then strange things could happen.

 

I also heard about a particular genetic defect popping up in shepherds from a certain area in eastern Europe. It had never been found in the breed before, but ....guess what? It was fairly common in ANOTHER herding breed that was native to this particular region. Nope, not too hard to put 2+2 together!

I really wish I'd bookmarked/copied the above story, as now I can't remember the details, but I'm fairly sure the breed involved was the GSD. 

I've also heard stories (on this website) about very well-bred, expensive GSDs being DNA tested, and the results coming back as NOT pure GSD.

How many working lines breeders are going to showlines dogs looking for improvements to their breeding programs, etc.?

How many working lines dogs are going V1 in the show ring?  When was the last time a sable, black sable, black & tan, bi-color went V1?

This alone speaks volumes to the fact that we're dealing with two separate breeds at this point in time and for the foreseeable future.  Breeders from both sides of the table are going to have to come together and decide if they want to better and save the breed or to let each faction go their separate ways, thus solidfying the division.  For this to even be considered, breeders will need to question and eventually outright deny the legitimacy of the SV because I think it goes without saying that the breed's best interest is no longer the mission statement of the SV.  I suspect, though, that there will be much resistence going forward with such an idea, but eventually the puppet must tug its pull before all is lost.

I have had two females that were and are half so called working and half so called show line.  The one I currently have Ivana vom Mystical Haus can run down a cheetah and her puppies are the best all around puppies I have ever raised.  Ivana's mother was an SG1 (USA) female with OFA excellent hips and her sire was Hessel from O'Donnel's.  Link to her pedigree below.  Plenty of BSP winners with good BSZS placings ( Javir vom Talka Marda ) and also plenty of them with bad hips and that were never used as stud dogs because they had obvious faults.  I also had a so called show line female SCH III that was bred to a so called working line dog and her puppies were excellent and from a litter of 4 there were two police service dogs.  Her puppies pedigree below.  I have no problem with breeding GSD to GSD and the so called label show line and working line is just a crutch to use if you don't know the dogs.  The prejudices run both ways as I have tried to breed my working line solid blacks to a show line male and the owner of the male will not allow it.  Prior to 1950's there was no working or show but I am sure even then there were folks measuring their dogs johnsons and going on about the purity of the GSD and everyone surely was claiming the breed was going to hell.

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=654626-ivana-vom-mystical-haus

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=380822-axel-vom-valkyrieheim

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=450116-javir-vom-talka-marda

DUCHESS VAN REINOLF

Workingline   X    Showline   

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=1836049-duchess-van-reinolf

Would be nice if you comment her on her page to! 

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=1836049-duchess-van-reinolf

Beautiful bitch, Rico.

Beautiful and STRONG bitch, lovely bone, nice and dry. Looks powerful but not coarse. Nice. Really nice. 

Terrible pic quality but this is a recent update on one of my SL/WL pups, the <blue> sable female, Elaina. Happy with both temperament and structure of that litter. 

Rico and Jenni78 .. nice females .. breed them to either working or showline males and improve either.   Rico .. I am beginning to like the KNPV GSD more and more.  Interesting is that your girl has a 2-2 ancestor on Mink v H W that was a bomb dog (G Eika vom Haus Ming ).  Rico .. your female has an interesting bloodline.  Both Rico and Jenni78 .. I admire strong females as both of your dogs exemplify.

Nice positive post, Bubba. I agree, both very nice females. I would be proud to own either.

I agree, both beautiful dogs. The only way to have ONE German Shepherd dog again.

The way the breed was intended. All it takes is the breeders to care about THE BREED...AS A WHOLE

A beautiful dog, Rico...Ingodd´s Agassi ( Ghandi) combined with Quando Sofienwald on the father´´s side compared with the mother´s side at least looks more than great!
I´d give her a chance...

Bubba, Eika is in 3. generation on mother´s side, I don´t see any 2-2 ancestor on Mink?!?
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