Workinglines vs Showlines - Page 3

Susie... you say that gsd was not bred for police dog first and foremost. I think this we all know but in this day and age what else is there besides sar? You have herding but the people looking for a gsd for real herding work I could probably count on my hands and feet worldwide. Most will opt for the Border Collie. The only realistic venue for gsd in real working capacity in todays society is PP, PSD, MILITARY and SAR unless I am overlooking something?? Seeing eye dog maybe? Personally I don't think you put much thought into this. Sincerely

One thing that supporters from either side have to do and that is broaden their knowledge and accept that whether working or breed interests the GSD is still one breed and should remain so. They need to be able to talk to each other if progress in the best interests of the breed as a whole is to be made.

We constantly read about the price of dogs but how many people really appreciate how much it costs to produce a litter and get to the point of selling a dog. For every puppy born there is a waiting period of two years before the animal can be bred from for the first time resulting in costs of keeping a dog over that period. Not all people will train their dogs and so they will have to pay for a trainer to get the qualifications needed to satisfy the conditions for breeding. There will be a stud fee to pay and travel expenses to take the female to the male. It is not always appropriate to use a male locally or within the same kennel to get the best results. Veterinary fees have to be paid. The costs of rearing a litter up and until the animals are sold. So with all of these factors coming into play it is only fair for breeders working or show to try to recover some of the expenses. For anyone wanting to buy an adult for breeding the price will not always be cheap - face up to the facts!! Most breeders end up out of pocket.

There are many who have over the years consistently produced above average dogs but never achieved success to the absolute top of the tree. There is nothing guaranteed.

For show breeders there has been the problems of bottlenecks over the last 30 years that have caused considerable problems for today’s breeders. The problems involve size, character, health and many more. It will probably take another thirty years to even part solve these problems but there are signs that they are trying.

For the working breeders there are still similar problems with failures in anatomy, character, hips and other health problems created by their own endeavours.

Character is a problem on both sides but not necessarily all created by the bloodlines. The show breeders show little interest in any sort of training and, for many, they also lack the ability to train. The development of character is man made and comes after the puppies are sold on. Many dogs character is ruined by the working people if the dog begins it’s training too early and does not work up fast enough. Not everyone is a good trainer on this side. Ask the question “how many dogs does a trainer go through every year before finding one that may reach the top”. The numbers will be amazing.

There are show dogs capable of working to a level higher than the basic levels but does the working trainers really know how to develop these dogs instead of just dismissing them out of hand because of where they come from. If the working people paid more attention to the anatomical aspect then perhaps more show people would be interested.

Who knows……………Remember, to get the best from a dog he has to like you too, they have feelings too.

Mackenzie

The GSD breeders I've talked to generally try to place their best dogs with buyers who have already proven that they will train and title. Even then it is often necessary to go the extra mile to get those dogs into training at the right time with the right helpers. That might include sellling dogs locally or to a location where there are people who can be trusted to help those buyers find those classes and trainers. More than one good SL/WL prospect has been ruined by a bad trainer or helper or their training neglected by the buyer; weve all seen it.  

Breeding good GSD's of any line that will be trained, titled , exhibited is always a work in progress and even the best breeder will be fortunate if 25% of their best dogs find their way into appropriate homes where they will be trained/titled. Selecting the right dogs for breeding is only the first step; getting them into the right homes is every bit as important. IMO this can be where GSD breeders fall flat due to their lack of desire to help others suceed with their goals. When a GSD does well, the entire breed profits; then bloodlines are immaterial.

 Far to many people interested in the money end of dogs. Hell, i see ads here all the time, main selling point...IN HEAT NOW, nothing else about the dog.

I agree, Kitkat. It makes me very sad for the dog to think that she seems to be of no value other than to produce puppies.

Just went to a police dog graduation in which 16 dogs graduated,( including another dog I raised and trained from 8 weeks to 2 years), and 9 of the dogs were Mali's weighing from 65 to 75 lbs. My male is 72 lbs, and the rest of the GS were in the mid seventy to upper seventy/low eighty lb weight. I saw NO heavy 90 lb dogs and very,very, seldom see GS that size graduate from police schools. Actually, the GS that graduated looked a lot like the early GS in body type in that they were lithe, moderate, and rather straight rears, with short lengths of stifle providing the agility needed for this type of environmental work. Most Mali's are 60 to 70 lbs and they have become the go to dog in LE.....so much for that 90 lb dogs being the norm for police work. Actually, it's the opposite, you seldom see 90 lbs dogs in LE these days. That's why people have to be careful what they read on Internet, a lot of it is based on very,very, limited knowledge of what they speak on....jmo.

Bigger is always better in the US, many breeds are suffering because they are too large to do their intended jobs. Heavy heads lead to shortened muzzles, overly long soft palates, breathing issues, bad bites with missing teeth, apple shaped skulls, dogs without patent airways that huff and puff like freight trains. I watched my original breed go down the proverbial toilet because they are bred for over size and heavy heads with hanging lips. We even have breeders selling "Giants" as the true Alaskan Malamute. Breeders "proving" their oversized atrocities by weight pulling. a fun activity but one that proves nothing for a freighting breed. Agility and endurance is very important for a working breed.

I can understand the commercial breeder who breeds and trains for the police and other security related clients not being too concerned about bloodlines and the aims for anatomical perfection. These dogs work in an environment of danger and guarding of high value equipment (aircraft etc) and their task requires dogs who are very lively when called upon and required to bite anywhere to get the job done. The breeders/trainers demands on the dogs is considerably higher and more extreme than the needs of show, sport and other disciplines. The majority by far of breeders and owners are for show,pet,and sport. It is this community that this sort of thread is designed for particularly as this is the biggest source of dogs that are produced. In breeding for this market it does not mean that the dogs produced cannot be used for more extreme work and that then depends on the skill of trainers. Even dogs of 90ilbs can be useful in this type of work where a bit more beef is needed but it then depends on fitness levels to get the best results from the heavier dogs.

I also think that this thread should be free from comparison with Malinois or any other breed. This thread is about the GSD.

Mackenzie

Mac, the fact is, comparison is done in the real world by people looking for the right dog for the job. Gustav made an extremely valid point in his comparison of the Mali and gsd graduating from the police k9 accadamy together...means the two breeds went through the same exact training and requirement regimen. I'm sure most here have heard or read how the gsd is being replaced for real work by the Mali. The fact that there was not much split between the two breeds in the class is relavent and seeing the structural type gsd that was able to make it through very tough boot camp to graduate next to the Mali is relavent. To me, it gives a vivid picture of what the proper work gsd needs to have structurally.....what it's founders intended, not extreme in size or structure. Temperament and nerve strength without the proper structure to carry out the jobs is no better than a bulldog that can't waddle his way out of a paper bag to catch a rat.

Joanro I appreciate the points that both you and Gustav make as valid.  The point that I am making is that we do not want the thead to develop into who is better or more suited than the GSD particularly because anatomicly their construction will be different.  I think that the discussion is really about the differences between the working and show lines and what can be done to bring the two sides together as far as possible.  As I have pointed out the majority of dogs are not produced for the extremes of law enforcement etc but dogs who need to proceed as far as is necessary to fulfil what has been intended from the outset.  It would be fantastic if these dogs could fulfil the top levels of Schutzhund and IPO qualifications.  If they can do this then that is the point for them to continue with their work to become law enforcement dogs and compared with other breeds who wish go the extra mile to achieve this aim.   For dogs taken at too young an age in the hope of becoming law enforcement animals leaves the problem of what happens to the failures for one reason or another.  On another post a trainer said that he looks at about 1000 dogs every year with a failure rate of 800 animals although not all of these fail because they cannot do the work but some fail on health grounds.  Multiply that by say 100 other trainers with similar results and the numbers become frightening.

The other point that I am making is for the betterment for the breed as a whole rather just one activity.  In Shutzhund and IPO we still bring out the traits that the breed is famous for.

Mackenzie

800 failures from testing 1000 dogs were not all gsd, most were Mali. A dog does not need to be extreme to be lek9. They must be sound in temperament, nerve strength, structure...the same pup going to a be raised for k9 prospect should not have a problem if it instead went to a family. In fact, those prospects are raised in a family environment. If they don't cut the grade for one reason or other, they can be placed in a sport home or family. A pup that has everything except environmental nerve strength, ie, insecure on slick floors, that same dog can excel in IPO, no slick floors required:-)
It's very important to know what type gsd can handle the rigors of pk9 academy, as those will reflect the proper gsd.