Workinglines vs Showlines - Page 4

joanro, I am very much aware that puppies placed into a family home get a better start.  This is exactly the point made by v Stephanitz.  The point that you make regarding being sound in temperament, nerve strength, structure is something that we should all be aiming for and all dogs will at some time have a problem with a slippery floor whether it is part of any test or not.

People like you and I know from experience and appreciate the benefits of proper training.  For those other than the show people, who have a reluctance towards training, who has a dog that they want to breed from must have a minimum Sch h or IPO and therefore many more dogs benefit from the training that they get.  For some Countries like the UK there is no necessity to obtain a working qualification before being able to breed from an animal and that is a loss to those people.  Another major problem for some breeders is that have too many dogs to do justice to all of them.

Mackenzie

Mack and Susie, excuse me but all things are related and I have to ask for clarification, please Hired Dog (if you are reading), Joan & Gustav are especially requested to answer this, also Show experts should provide input to what seems contradictory about the structure of GSD.

1. On another thread Blitzen provided a link to a very interesting article about front reach and endurance, where the author says the wolf has best efficient trot. GSD was designed for best efficient trot. GSD design is basically made on moderate rear angulation and maximum front angulation. Wolf has less than moderate angulation in rear as well as front. So if the structure of wolf is best for efficient economic trot, why did the GSD creator make a new design, why didn't he simply adopt wolf structure, was he mistaken?

2. Gustav, I understand and accept the claim which is a fact to me, that mid size, lighter weight adds to a GSD's ability to perform certain jobs, but PLEASE explain to me how a good moderate rear angulation plus a well angulated shoulder would take away from a GSD's ability to perform a certain job.

Please no one answers about overangulated rear, I am not talking about extreme rear angulation.

3. Quality of a GSD depends on levels of drives and certain traits like solid nerves, I learned here from you there are three drives, prey, defense and pack.

Best is when all drives are equivalent or maybe better described balanced and in training we make use of all of them, prey and pack help in making the training easier, agression and civil are associated with defense drive, protection is also associated with defense drive. Pack drive plays a big role in making a good companion. Please explain to me why do you love a high prey drive work line dog and seek him? Is it because he is easier to train? Why don't you breed balanced drives dog that can be good for all i.e companion, SAR, Police or guard? Why is it difficult to find a protective GSD that can guard? Eventhough a GSD is historically loved for its protective instinct. What is it wrong you are doing?

Please my language might not be fine tuned but I am sincere in these questions.

 

Ibrahim

Only out of curiosity - over here still a lot of the dogs used by police for "protection / streetwork" are not sound, and they don´t live with the handler´s family, but in kennels where they are no danger. Still a lot of "crazy ones " out there. I can´t imagine police in your country only uses friendly preymonsters?
Once again, I´m talking about the single purpose dogs, the dogs used for scent/bomb detection are totally different. I think you need to distinguish.

I just took a look at Bomber and Drago - both seem to weigh more than 40 kg / 88 + lb, no real difference within the showlines, that´s a lot!

Susie, I can't speak for all the GSD's working in any type sort of security venue in the US, but I know the Czech imports retained by Homeland Security for New York City live in at least one kennel in that area. They are never taken home by the officers according to my friend who owns the kennel. 

Susie, look how much SL Bomber has in his ped.
Ask Cliff about the temperament of lek9 in this country.
I have a friend in SC who is a LEO and was a k9 handler. They had a gsd the department bought, that dog lived in the house, was safe with anyone invited the home, including children. The department required and paid for a kennel with a concrete floor, which is where the dog stayed when not on the job and the handler was away from the house. That dog was dual purpose and was on the small side, approx 70 lbs tops. The handler came here to vibist, with the k9 on many occasions. Very normal dog, certainly not crazy.

Susie, you have to understand that most people will go out of their way and speak out of ignorance when it comes to their breed because they, A) dont know, or B), they want to make it sound as if nothing is wrong.

Here is the REALITY of these single and dual purprose police dogs. Federal agencies require that their dogs get dropped off in a kennel and picked up from that kennel for work. No dog goes home with their handler, for various reasons that I could explain to you, but, I will leave out for now. 

Most police agencies will issue a kennel for the dog to live in, OUTSIDE and do not want the dog in the house, but, it does go home with the handler. That is true here and also in Canada, I have many friends who work police dogs daily and kennels is where these dogs live in, even when its -30 outside. Do handlers bring these dogs inside to spend time with them, I am sure they do, but, that is not the norm nor is it encouraged. I do have a friend who works a PH I titled Malinois that in my opinion is certifiable CRAZY, that dog is a menace, yet, I have seen this handler allow his 4 year old daughter to drag this dog around the house by the collar. I stopped visiting because of that reason and because I warned him...

A true working dog who lives to hunt and fight bad guys who want to hurt you is not a pet nor should it be expected to be one and this BS of trying to make everything a pet has been the destruction of most formerly working breeds. I have said it many times before, there are no sport lines and show lines, there is a GSD that was bred as a WORKING dog and if your dog cannot work, have fun with it, but, dont call it a GSD.

To be fair, Joan, those are pretty old lines. Bomber is hardly chock full of modern-day showlines. 

Bomber is heavy-built dog, but he's not massively huge. He is certainly no taller than a few other V rated working lines I can think of..and they are also older age and in fantastic shape, ie, size does not necessarily make a dog break down in time. There is a lot more to it than that. 

Thank you, Blitzen and Hired 

I only wanted to point out that at least over here police is not looking for pets - some of them are able to live in families, for sure, but the dogs are certainly NOT chosen out of this reason - it simply doesn´t matter. They are looking for strong, civil dogs, not "well socalized", several of them are plain crazy, but at least suspicious ( I like them ), but for sure not the kind of dog you want to live around your only child...
And they want them to stay that way, so why "pet" them?

I used these dogs ( Bomber/Drago ) as examples only - they are the NORM, not the exception nowadays.
Too much weight combined with too much angulation = not good for a workingdog breed.

Some,  of the NYC patrol dogs live with their handlers and when the officer retires he or she is allowed to keep the dog.

My friend who boards the NYC security k-9's says they are off the wall dogs that would probably not do well as housedogs.