Workinglines vs Showlines - Page 6

On page 4, I asked a few questions if anyone is interested to answer all or part of them

Didn't I just say that? The part about (paraphrasing myself from earlier) "if they're not hindered in any way by their body."    If you have a good strong line of dogs that is sound into senior years (over 7-8) who cares what the scale says if the bodies are holding up? 

I think there are a lot more factors than weight to worry about. Weight is far too subjective. 

Breed the dogs that prove themselves in temperament (whenever I say temperament I am INCLUDING working ability, as the GSD is supposed to be a working dog) and health into old age (ie, stop accepting that dogs are arthritic by 8 and that's just the way it is) and a lot of other things will fall into line naturally. 

I just got off the phone with a training decoy who has worked Drago, his impression was that he is a very powerful dog with lots of speed and a bite as powerful as two other dogs he rates as the most he's worked. Said the dog is on the large side but not clunky at all...said he was agile and athletic in his strikes.

Joan, which of my dogs are you basing my likes on? I didn't realize that you had ever met one of my dogs. 

"Standard" or "outside standard" are the terms that ought to be used, imo. Joan says I like them big. How she knows that, I don't know. I also don't know what "big" means to Joan. Maybe I do like them "big" by her definition. I also have no idea what "moderate" means to Joan. Maybe her "moderate" is different than mind. Subjectivity is why this debate will go on as long as the sun rises and sets. 

... My 10 month old is 70lbs. and I can see his ribs and he has a tuck.. 

Okay, Ibrahim, I´ll try...

1. On another thread Blitzen provided a link to a very interesting article about front reach and endurance, where the author says the wolf has best efficient trot. GSD was designed for best efficient trot. GSD design is basically made on moderate rear angulation and maximum front angulation. Wolf has less than moderate angulation in rear as well as front. So if the structure of wolf is best for efficient economic trot, why did the GSD creator make a new design, why didn't he simply adopt wolf structure, was he mistaken?

The German Shepherd is a created breed, no wild animal. For sure Stephanitz was a talented "designer", people should "like" not only the working abilities of his breed, but their outlook, too.
In my personal opinion a German Shepherd bred according to the standard is one of the most efficient trotters we have within the dogworld. Better/worse than the wolf? I simply don´t know.

2. Gustav, I understand and accept the claim which is a fact to me, that mid size, lighter weight adds to a GSD's ability to perform certain jobs, but PLEASE explain to me how a good moderate rear angulation plus a well angulated shoulder would take away from a GSD's ability to perform a certain job.

Please no one answers about overangulated rear, I am not talking about extreme rear angulation.

Nothing, but we are that used to overangulated dogs, that we lost reality. As longs as overangulated, "wobbly" dogs are able to achieve a "V" rating, we are wrong.
And Gustav thinks in terms of "real" working abilities (police) - these dogs need to have speed and power when needed (think about jumping, or think about fast gallopp for a short period of time) - a less angulated dog does have more direct power. Is this understandable?

3. Quality of a GSD depends on levels of drives and certain traits like solid nerves, I learned here from you there are three drives, prey, defense and pack.

Best is when all drives are equivalent or maybe better described balanced and in training we make use of all of them, prey and pack help in making the training easier, agression and civil are associated with defense drive, protection is also associated with defense drive. Pack drive plays a big role in making a good companion. Please explain to me why do you love a high prey drive work line dog and seek him? Is it because he is easier to train? Why don't you breed balanced drives dog that can be good for all i.e companion, SAR, Police or guard? Why is it difficult to find a protective GSD that can guard? Eventhough a GSD is historically loved for its protective instinct. What is it wrong you are doing?

At least I don´t seek the "high prey drive work line dog" - I don´t like them, but they are easier to stimulate, animate = easier to train and handle - and the over the top prey drive is able to cover up a lot of temperament faults.

But that´s just me.

Templars, for shame!! LOL

And you know what else, while I'm in the mood to rant.... people LIE about what their dogs weigh! If it's a man, they say the dog weighs a ton more than the dog actually weighs. Women say the dog is smaller. Interesting psychology, no? And if they're not lying, they're trying to guess how much your dogs weigh by a picture or even in real life and they suck at it. I never pay any  attention to what 90% of folks say their dog weighs because it's usually b.s. A dog can be skinny and a dog can be fat; a dog can have very poor bone or be very substantial; that's my point when I say weight should not be a hard and fast rule in judging whether a dog is standard or oversized. 

The things I've heard about my own dogs is comincal. Caleb was said to be 120. Caleb was never ever more than 98lbs, and far more often closer to 92lbs. Capri has been rumored to be some monstrous 85-90lb female. Capri has never weighed more than 76lbs. Beauty has been guessed at over 100. She's 74. Aria was guessed at 75. She's 55. Weight is a silly thing to get hung up on. JMO. Back on topic now...sorry about the detour...weight just gets me. 

 

Susie, great point about covering up temperamental flaws. 

"Susie, great point about covering up temperamental flaws."
That´s real life experience ...

About the weight - all of our breed dogs are weighed twice in their life (on the breed survey) - the people DO lie about the weight of their dogs, but most of them try to get them lighter, because they are too heavyweight. And on the breed survey the dogs are in very good shape ( not overweighed ).

Susie, I am talking about Americans for the most part. There is a huge trend of "bigger is better." Even buyers talk about breeder's adult dogs, bragging about them and their descriptions are so out of line, but that's how rumors get spread about famous dogs. That's all I'm saying- most people cannot tell what a dog weighs by how it looks and I will stick with Korschiens every time ;) 

Jenni- lol, well i just weighed him because I started a raw diet.  I wanted a 2.5% of his weight so I knew what to get from the butcher.  He's all legs, awkward looking..  men usually only lie about their height/weight, not dogs :)  btw I'm a newb, I appreciate reading from you breeders.  My puppy buying experience was interesting to say the least 

Here he is

http://vimeo.com/117688395