Working line cross - Page 2

there is an article showing SL and WL are genetically different enough to be distinct breeds.

 

interesting that folks can not find what they want in the thousands of existing lines/kennels that they have to create these "special" dogs that have never been demonstrated to make any impact on the breed in fact quite the oppsitte, absence is evidence in this case.

 most of these experiments tend to a high drive nerve bag, based on reports from people that have had them that i have heard from.

 

will it improve a working line?

 

will it prove a show-line?

 

who seeks these dogs - mainly pet owners?

 

 

 

 

He is a tough dog .. very fast and very strong.  He could have been a police dog but he is doing a good job of making his family safer and I think he likes the job he has.  The puppy will be his partner in crime and he is fitting in thus far but I warned them about having two males.  The black and tan puppy (pic below at around 8 weeks) will likely be slightly taller and will be less stoic than the solid black as he takes after his mother Ivana who is energetic and in constant motion.  Obviously the puppy is a looker like his mother as well but Ivana has had 9 puppies thus far in two litters with the same solid black sire and no one can tell them apart but me and Ivana until they get 4 months old.

I see just as much variation if not more in some of my inbred/linebred litters as I do with the working x showline crosses and back crosses.  They all look and act like mom and dad but the inbreds do tend to be more variable in personality and strengths or weaknesses.  I am not so interested in color or identical appearance but some  people prefer a black and tan or at least some brown on their GSD as compared to solid blacks.  Crazy ass competition dogs or police dogs ( Hessel from O'Donnels' was one ) have their place but it is a small one and getting smaller.  By breeding dogs such as Hessel to a showline some of his defects were mitigated and crossing those offspring back with either show or working lines is a way to improve either.

 

Vk, check out this dog's pedigree back five/seven gen back. You will see Quando vd Arminius and Canto Wienerau plus many more. http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=539943-hank-vom-weinbergblick

bubba, you proove that if you mate them,they will produce pups and there are people who buy them and one even could have been a policedog

Ive did  acombination work/show one time, produced a IPO 3  FH2 competitiondogthat  recently won a big tracking competition over 4 different weekends

what does this proove..............that one bullet hit target, all  others  missed

 

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=653751-unique-vd-duca-vallei-ipo3

 

now geneticly the total genepackage of sutch dog is so all over the place that it will be hard to predict what they will produce, I would feel ok doing an halfbrother/halfsister combination on the one that stands out to stabilaze things but that would be a big nono to most

 

The OP asked the question can working lines and show lines be successfully used in a breeding program.  The answer is yes and I have shown results of using show and working lines in multigeneration breedings.  Those saying no who have personal experience breeding show and working lines in a breeding program should speak up and those just repeating what the snobs in both the working and show think tanks have mindlessly repeated for the last few years should remain silent or give proof otherwise.  German shepherds all go back to the same ancestors whether show line or working line labeled.  There has not been any new genetic material added since the breed books were closed ( at least there should not have been ).  Any geneticist that has any knowledge will tell you that throwing away the small diversity of genetics in any dog breed will not get you anything but more trouble.  Those who think they can throw away the bad without throwing away some good with it through inbreeding and linebreeding should take genetics 101.  Good and bad traits co-exist through linkage, block inheritance, and multiple allele expression.  The working lines as most here define them are dogs for biting sports and police work which is not the tool set that the GSD needs to be a useful and utilitarian breed as was the purpose of the GSD in the beginning.  There has been no new bloodlines or genetic material added to the GSD breed save spontaneous mutations since the 1950's when the false labels of show and working line were first used.  The terms show line and working line are man made constructs which have no meaning to the dogs themselves nor do those terms describe any specific trait or ability that applies to all working or show line labeled GSD.

Erny, Evita and Etta James ( working x show ) X working

Erny at 7 weeks of age

A half brother to half sister mating would never be a no no to me. IMO GSD breeders should think about doing that more often.

Anyway, I'm not sure which WL dogs in Duke's pedigree are "good" or "bad", I have no experience with those lines and never will. However, if it is of any interest, I do know a bit about Ando and his sire, Cary, and I believe they were considered 2 of the best working Va and V rated GSL's in Germany while they were still alive.

As was stated in your initial statement..."I am in the research stage of buying a male stud"...I think you might look at getting an adult NOT a puppy...but then again maybe that's what your plan is...I think too many people will buy a puppy thinking that this will be their future "Stud Dog"...Well...that might happen but chances are that it won't...What I mean is maybe this "Puppy" won't mature into what you think...Maybe the working ability or looks won't be what you want or maybe the Hips/Elbows...etc...won't be correct...Many things to consider and worry about as a male matures...

I have another thing I see or hear all the time...and that is...People who want to be breeders and have no experience...They say they want to breed German Shepherds so I ask what do you want to breed...And I hear things like...Oh...Police Dogs...and Schutzhund Dogs...and Pets...and...and...and...Working Dogs and Show dogs and so on...

We talk more and say...before you breed...You should have a GOAL...I mean what is your GOAL...and once again I hear the...Oh...Police Dogs...and Schutzhund Dogs....etc...

Another words they have no idea what they want to do...or what they're doing...So I think the first thing when you want to buy or get a "Stud Dog"...Is to figure out what it is you want to do...

Do your research...NOT only on the internet or talking to people on the phone...but get out and go to clubs and meet different people and handle and train some different dogs and see exactly what it is that you're interested in and would like to produce...

One more thing...And that is if you're new to different dogs is to be sure you can handle the dog you want and get...

 

~Bob~

 

 

 

I disagree with some thoughts on here...I support mixing the lines. The agrument that the ultimate sport dog or show dog does not result from this breeding should not be seen as a negative in my eyes. I think people who breed to excel at a specfic thing do the german shepherd a disservice. We have far to much specialization, in my opinion. I feel it hurts the breed, changes the breed standard, and creates separation.

I don't think we should have an extreme dogs...that goes for extreme sport dogs, extreme show dogs, etc. I don't want my dog excelling at one thing at the expense of all else.

Maybe, Dog1, the breedings the produced the mixed lines were not seen as a success becaue they operated to bring the dogs back to a median and away from extremes. So, to a show person or working person that would be seen as a failure. However, to people like myself, that would be seen as a success. The german shepherd should be a jack of all trades and master of none. She should be moderate in every sense of the word and balanced without extremes.

My dog has titles in 5 areas (soon to be 6) along with her CGC and TC. She will not be a superstar in any one area but she does all very well...and more importantly...willingly. The transition between the worlds is easy for her because she is a balanced dog. She is equally at home on the IPO field, in the conformation ring, herding sheep, competing in akc events, doing therapy dog work, and just being a great companion and family dog.

I encourage mixing lines as it will help stablize the breed. Now, the competitive ambitious people who want to win will always go for the extreme in whatever area it is..be it obedience, sport, or conformation.  But, in my heart, I feel the good breeder wants a dog to be able to be versatile..the absolute hallmark of our beloved breed. They want a dog that can excel in whatever is asked of her..maybe not be the "best" but be able to traverse through different owner requests with great capability.

As someone mentioned, I also LOVE the Universal Sieger idea!! I have three suggestions for USCA:

1) Create more of a system where true American breds (both parents in America and puppies conceived and whelped in America) are rewarded. I feel we need to create some kind of incentive system to encourage and reward American breeding.

2) Keep plugging the Universal Sieger competition!

3) Create some kind of lifetime award for versatility. If dogs have a SG or V rating, and IPO title, a breed survey, and a performance title in any perfromance event (outside of usca) they can achieve a lifetime award and recognition.

But, just my two cents!!! I ADORE seeing crossover between the AKC performance, IPO sport, and SV/UKC/AKC Conformation worlds all by the same dog! To me, that is the ultimate goal and I would take that over a Sieger or Working Dog Champion!!!

Sarah

 Thank you for the input

I am going to local clubs to do some more talking and learning in May.

There comes a point where it's not about "versatility" so much as breeding for pets, however. 

I am ALL for versatility, in fact, it's in my top tier of questions I ask myself about a breeding. However, there seems to be quite a difference of opinion as to what makes a dog "versatile" and what makes the dog a watered-down pet who isn't an embarrassment (to most) but who isn't really remarkable in any way that bears reproducing.

My current favorite dog is a young dog, yet, so I'm watching to see how he matures but I'm pretty excited. To me, he embodies what versatile should mean. He is doing heavy, serious training (not just club stuff once a week) in venues that are in no way related, typically (real world tracking in very difficult terrain, high level protection with extreme control, and autism assistance). But make no mistake, he *IS* a "rockstar" at the things he's doing; he's not just ok or even good; he's excellent. He is really impressing people...even people who actually know what they're doing!   

 

Point being, EXCELLENCE at several things, to me, is the goal and what I speak of when I use the term "versatility," not adequacy.