Czech pedigree define??? - Page 5

like i said, we can just agree to disagree. no need to get your panties in a bunch

Nan's, Lexi pedigree was for an example...pure Czech or not, was the question.

'no need to get your panties in a bunch' that's always the clue that all brain fuel has been expended. ;-)

Why do 90% of the threads get redirected or end up with bickering? 

PLEASE lets get back to the original question and get more opinions on what was specifically asked. 

Tell that to the guy who decided personal attacks were the way to go. I answered the question. And tried to stay on topic. Is this on topic?.. ' The power of selective breeding can actually control the final product and can totally change what it was in the beginning.  The ASL dog is considered a line of its own now.'

IMO it won't take too much longer for this forum to die out due to members getting tired of being challenged and lectured every time they have an opinion. Then there is the issue of having to deal with the forum troll who has no respect for anyone regardless of how long they have been in the breed or what their accomplishments. These internet dog forums are all about Facebook  today and there are plenty of them wth open memberships. Who wants to argue over every single thread and deal with idiots? Not me.

That post was not topic, either.

disagree with quite a bit that is written here, you  have to understand that all dogs supposedly go back to horand, but selection can make a huge difference in only a few generations

classic czech dogs were bred and selected for patrol and streetwork, west dogs for show, competition/points and money so even with same dogs behind them there was quite a difference in breedingchoices and selectioncritria, resulting in a different type of dog on both sides of the wall so to speak

 

right now many czech breeders breed for sport and selling pups, resulting in different breedingchoices than the old days, thus resulting in producing the same type of dog you can buy in germany belgium or everywhere else where they breed the same dogs with pedigrees filled up by the same names

calling these dogs "czech "dogs would be a sales pitch to me because it doesnot matter in what country you buy your Ellute offspring, at the end of the day it is all Ellute offspring with a different colour pedigree

Pure lines are the only option a breed has to be able to outcross in the future so I think it is important for any breed to have different lines with different genes and caracteristics available

when every GSD in the world is the same type of dog with the same names on the pedigree the breed is screwed

'calling these dogs "czech "dogs would be a sales pitch to me because it doesnot matter in what country you buy your Ellute offspring, at the end of the day it is all Ellute offspring with a different colour pedigree.'
Agree completely. This is also very true...'when every GSD in the world is the same type of dog with the same names on the pedigree the breed is screwed'

For what it  is   worth  I was the first person who brought certain type of Czech dogs into USA and Canada . There may have been some others who brought some kind of Czech dogs   into US from other lines then I have, but such effort  was sporadic and inconsistent.   What I now call the Old Style German Shepherds were back then,  in early  1981 and several years after that up until 2001, created  and developed   mainly for Czechoslovakian border patrol (z Pohranicni  straze = z Ps =  CZzPs)

 specific type of now legendary dogs. They were true working type dogs not bred for sport what so ever  and they at first were not  even a subject to sport testing of SchH or ZVV And the sport  testing came later and was being forced on border patrol breeding program by the registry in order so that  all dogs registered and bred  were going by the same rules. Before, regardless  if the dog was actual

 LE or Mili  working dog  was good enough for the registry to register such dog. These dogs were non sport working dogs and  they were bred strictly for guarding of the border and for SNB internal police units. On the border alone there was about 1500 dogs and they all were screened and tested thoroughly for suitability for breeding  and potentially used in the breeding program. These dogs had to be proficient in obedience, protection and tracking based on strong genetic potential for such activity.  Before 1981 the Czechoslovakian border patrol K9 breeding program was under control of Ing  Karel Hartl who from 1950 was involved with with "CV" ( Czechoslovakian wolf dog). At 1981 Jiri Novotny took over the breeding program in CZ borderpatrol  dogs, discarded CV program and imported  by often dramatic situations several DDR studs. They were Iwo v Buschecke,

 Whisky v Ritterberg,  Bero v. Friedersdorfe Fleur and Gomo v Schieferschloss.  And before that he also imported from DDR Treu Schaferstoltz,  Victor v Ederquelle and finaly Bojar Schotterhof. These dogs were the stud foundation in all male lines in CZ z Ps. The females were of Czech origin. 

 Then, when I came into USA, I  realized that the quality of GS dogs has a lot to desired and I imported first dogs in about 1980+/- from Ota Meloun  those dogs even so from Czech were more of a German style and after short time I aligned myself with Jiri Novotny and we created partnership and started importing dogs from his private stock and dogs which he and others  got   from "z Ps" as a breeding stud service reward and we started promoting this type of a dog which grew independently from the rest of the world  behind the "Iron curtain".  Now there are some other lines from civilian lines  which were involved with CZzPs breeding program. 

 Then in 1990ties when Iron curtain came down more and more breeders from Czech started to jump on a bandwagon which I and Jiri have created demand for.  

Influences

As the time passed  the German influence of sport dogs infected Czech dogs. Czechs being sport oriented and competitive nation  wanted to compete on international scene. Also desire to try "something different" brought in many WG sport lines. That then got quite a following . But these are not what I call Old style Czech dogs.   These modern Czech by WG influenced dogs achieved majority in popularity.  Nevertheless by me created US and subsequently world demand for type of "old Style CZ dogs"   as they were generated by Jiri Novotny  are still being preserved. Jiri being GSD judge will not dis dogs who are having natural protectiveness and sturdy structure  and other serious characteristics of Old Style dogs he , I and some other still alive. Jiri as judge has a great following and and last time I was there he was the only one from judges involved in shows and breed surveys who promoted such dogs. 

 Thus what are the "Old style  Czech dogs"? I am pretty adamant that Czech dogs - as far as Old Style CZ dogs, are a type of dog bred by Czech breeders and breeders who in other countries are maintaining the spirit and type of these lines and are approved by us.   And it does not really matter where the dog is coming from being it Germany or China ( so to speak) .  Jiri and I breed and promote  these dogs who have old foundation in  z Ps lines and are also are aided by other dogs from different countries and breeding programs as long as they have the required characteristics of Natural protectiveness, good prey drive, desire to track,  rugged health, endurance, deep pigmentation and sturdy structure and some other characteristics. The introduction of non Czech dogs is  done in order to avoid genetic bottle neck. GSDs after all are all from Germany. We are not Czech maniacs . we just like the dogs of certain type  regardless  where it came from.   I and especially Jiri are the keepers of these dogs. Jiri is maintaining at great cost to him  all original lines which involves well over 100 dogs. There is non besides Jiri Novotny who  is doing this in such complexity and entirety with Old style Czech dogs.  I am just helping and am mainly involved with breeding mainly now in 5th line and in 3rd and I also   by selling Jiri's dogs am helping to maintain his financial ability to keep up what he created in since 1981. In any case since I ma 62 and jiri 60  there is a danger that these dogs are going disappear with Jiri and me in favor of modern sport type dogs who are mainly based on prey.  

Contrary to what some may try to make you believe  what   I am saying here  has nothing to do with the business of selling dogs, I assure you. For us to sell dogs is just means to make money to  maintain these lines and in general what we believe is a correct GSD as it was generally intended  by it's creator Max v Stephanitz - The Working Dog...in this case CZ dog based on Old style Czeh and DDR lines coming from the breeding program of Czechoslovakian  border patrol. 

 Are we the only ones who produces true working dogs ? Absolutely not! We are just contributors. But we are the only ones who do  it on the scale we do it on and with the background we have with type of Czech dogs who made these dogs now legendary. Many claim   Czech dogs lines and most are true bogus and sales gimmick indeed. Yes there are some who created great working lines  from our lines 

(z PsCZ)even here in USA. My nemesis hate her or love her or her me  Joan Roanlder is one such person. Are they good dogs? Yes!  But are they Czech type dogs? I would say not.  For that the culture and attitude and the socio-political and historical attitude and tradition   of people who created these dogs needs to be understood and lived. I would say that if someone creates great  dogs then they do not need to call them Old Style Czech dogs". They can stay on it's own merit as let say xyz Nebraska dogs.  

 Here is a  claim which I make with every e mail I send out: 

"Please be aware that there are many breeders claiming Czech lines or European lines. However, their knowledge of all the dogs on various pedigrees may be minimal or nonexistent. It is important that prior to the breeding of two dogs, the breeder considers ALL DOGS on the pedigree AND THEIR LITTER MATES and their ALREADY EXISTING OFFSPRING and ALL THEIR QUALITIES and not just one quality like hips, or just color, or just drive, etc. To breed two quality dogs is only THE first step in matching the pair for quality offspring. Knowledge of ALL THE DOGS AND THEIR LITTER MATES and their ALREADY EXISTING OFFSPRING and the ability to match potential breeding partners by compensating for the minuses of one breeding partner with the pluses of the other, comes after that."  

 

On top of it , such breeders also  need  to grasp why and for what the Old Style Czech dogs were bred for by culture now long gone.

 Which was rough rugged work in the streets and fields and woods and rugged conditions in service based on prey and natural protectiveness done by historically now old  people of Czechoslovakia. 

For many now claiming breeding Czech dogs is akin to someone on a Renaissance fest claiming that he is a true knight or king or crusader just because they dressed themselves as such.  

 This is how I see it.. For what ever it is worth. 

Prager Hans