reversed mask - Page 7

One more thing Hexe

Let us differentiate between indicator and end result

Indicators tell about a state that is visible right now or will be visible in future.

Example: one indicator of lack of pigmentation is nail color, if a puppy or junior/young adult dog has white nails then that is an indicator that this specific dog lacks in pigmentation, it could have rich coloration at this age but it SHALL fade in coloration as it gets older.

Therefore standard could/should be right, lack of mask is only an indicator, while Duke's dog has dark coloration right now, it might fade when it gets older (assuming standard is correct + my understanding of dog lacking in mask is correct too). Just a thought

Why is it so important that all agree with what others think.? Why cant people repectfully disagree and not agrue or debate it till its like beating a dead horse.

Duke asked for opinions.  I am sure he has already made his mind up as to what he will do.  No one should base a decision because of other people's  personal opinion of what is right or wrong.

Duke, go with what you want and feel is right for you and your program. Color/Pigment/mask or no mask is not important if you are speifically breeding for working dogs. If it is important to you that they all have dark faces than that might not be the male to use. Gotta use your better judgement and not rely on all the "experts' that think their way of thinking is the only right thing to do..

IMO& E  "Lacking in mask" - whether or not it is associated with a genetically

based general dilution of pigment, [and we really don't know yet, as Bubba pointed

out] - is NOT automatically associated with a 'light eye', anyway.  I have known

pale-faced GSDs that still had very dark brown-black eye colour.  Even more

noticeable than usual in a light tan face !    Come to that, I have also come across

quite a few specimens over the years that have otherwise correct, good, dark

pigment in all other respects,  but yellow headlamps.   Hey-ho, such is genetics !

And while the FCI Standard says what it does ^^^,  I never yet saw a Judge in any

Show ring excuse an otherwise stunningly correct dog because it lacked mask !

That is not a disqualification fault clause.

I am keeping an open mind on whether faded pigment and/or pale eyes  =

improved working ability ...

Hundmutter, did someone say faded pigment showed correlation to increased working ability? I've only heard lighter eyes. 

Ibrahim, I understand what you're trying to argue, I just do not think it's correct. One cannot equate fading with distinct reversal of the colors in which differentiate between mask and rest of face/head/neck. Look at any well-pigmented dog and then look at Duke's...they're simply opposite, hence the coining of the term "reverse." Is it 100% correct per the genetics? Dunno...like so many other things with genetics. 

Jen - maybe I read too much into Denwolf's first sentence on page 4:

"I most definitely have tracked a correlation between certain colors/

patterns and traits/ temperaments ...  I almost never speak of it"

And, same page, Gustav quotes Alfred Hahn (vom Busecherschloss)

saying he always maintained he found  "GSDs with lighter eyes

had a better working attitude. "

So you were lumping lighter eyes in with all over lighter or faded pigment then? I just didn't see anyone saying faded pigment meant better working and was curious. I have never heard that. Eyes, yes. Washed out dogs in general, no. Truly just a curiosity thing because I didn't see that anywhere or read that into the comments. 

I do know that of the 3 dogs I've taken back for TMD Syndrome, (one permanently and 2 just for training then were returned), they were all very very dark or black dogs with tongue spots and lighter eyes. Hardly science, but I had to LOL when I thought about it. 

Well, yes, I HAVE..

Patterns in nature repeat.. I notice patterns..  I make detailed notes.. document things..  collect data.

Color/pattern linking to specific other traits isn't something new in nature, and neither is it unique to the german shepherd dog.

My point..don't overlook a dog based on the MARKINGS its face carries,  just because its "different"...that particular PATTERN (reverse mask) seems linked to highly DESIRED attributes in a correctly balanced dog.

Don't confuse a lack of PIGMENT with a PATTERN.  Weak PIGMENT is ALSO linked to specific traits(or faults, health issues)...that is  WHY certain colors are disqualified...  

Lighter eyes, another topic.

(yes, my LIGHTER eyed dogs have traits that the darker eyed ones don't have..  yes, I noticed that pattern...years ago. different story.)

 

Denese, who are you talking to? 

Jen, I am in agreement with you..

I can't compose fast enough to keep up with the thread.

Pretty much responding to several others, especially to clarify my point from page 4.