Gorgeous Photo! - Page 3

A workingline with a "flying trot".

... and she rocks at herding! 

I believe stop action photopraphy has come to prove that almost all correct dogs will move with a suspension/flying trot. At one time it was assumed that the GSD was the only breed to be able to move that way. It takes a perfectly timed still photo to show the suspension gait at the exact second when all 4 feet leave the ground at the same time. Dawulf's photos prove that a dog does not need to have a lot of shoulder layback and/or rear angulation to suspend. Dingo's video below shows the beauty of a flat back without a roach.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPJPE9oNN7A

I've owned both ASL's and GSL's and combo of both over the years. Both bring different pros and cons to the table. IMO it's a big mistake to let oneself get so tangle up in blue so as to think that one is so much better conformation wise than the other. It's just not so.

As for workinglines and their conformation and movement, I've seen a few and those I've seen have pros and cons too. It's not easy to breed a correct GSD that can attain a V rating and titles. If it were, we'd see a lot more of them than we do and less excuses why not, wouldn't we?

I've seen slow motion photography of many German showlines, and most of them couldn't produce a moment of suspension if their lives depended on it!  It requires balanced angulation between the front and rear, and most of them just don't have that. Ditto for many of the ASLs, who have too much rear angulation and not enough in front.

It also requires that the dog be allowed to move somewhat freely, and that the diagonal front and rear legs be moving in unison. A tight lead is also a big factor in preventing this from  happening.

So, what you get is something that looks like this:

THis dog is on a fairly loose lead. Add a tight lead, and the rear sinks down even more, causing the front to lift even more:

A very big ring, no grass, and a good handler who is moving out like Kent is on the photos of Rumor is also a factor on whether or not the dog is showing suspension. I can pretty much promise you that an ASL that can't suspend is never going to make it to the BIS ring and/or will never attain a select rating at a NS. It might finish it's AKC CH title, but it's never going to win at the group level. Personally I've seen only a handful of GSL with decent movement at all and most are cowhocked with carp backs. The breed is not in perfect shape in either ring IMO. The best dog in the last SV show I attended was a workingline that ended with the last V rating and then went on to DQ in his breed survey protection.

I hope that last photo wasn't used in someone's ad as good GSD movement .

Thanks for your perspective on the American dogs, Blitzen. I didn't realize that.

The bottom photo is from an ad. That's where most of the really bad photos I have on file come from. Obviously the seller thought if was 'good movement'.

Totally agree, Blitzen. The more shows you go to, the more you notice it, I think. Hell the last Am. Line I met had his feet flopping all over the place when walking (but gaiting he floated) because his hocks/pasterns were so loose and he was soooo overangulated, but turns out he kicks some ass on the SchH field... and then at the last show I went to there was a lady with a GSL, dragging him around the kenneling area before the show and having people give him cheese so he would calm down (he was SHAKING and WHIMPERING, tugging at his leash trying to run), but guess who went BOB over I think 18 other well-bred and good tempermented GSDs? It's just a very weird state that the breed is in. A few laps around a ring just isn't enough to judge your breeding choices by. To hell with standards any more. :(

And honestly, how many VA WL's are there? And how many SL's have a rating *less* than a V, if they are re-shown after being titled?

I don't think it's going to get any better any time soon. The only upside is that a correct dog should be hard to miss, but that's no guarantee it will win . I never fail to be amazed at the photos GSD people in both venues use to advertise their dogs.

Hey, you know what, Smiley? The grass is green. Is that also bickering and starting brushfires? Insanity...it was a simple statement of FACT. Indisputable. 

I will repeat a simple fact here:  I do not know of too many working line breeders who would see a move toward ASL conformation an improvement.

The conclusion I make from that is that we're not going to see many working line breeders breeding to ASL. You see it all over BYB ads (mixing of American and European lines), but I am not aware of any serious working line breeders who are actively seeking ASL dogs to breed to on a regular basis seeking to improve conformation. GSL, sure, that happens from time to time. But most working line breeders consider the ASL far too different, even a different breed at this point. 

I know I would not do it, myself, from a health standpoint, even if I liked the individual. I'm sure there are healthy lines, but I don't know them nearly well enough to go messing around with them and introducing problems never before heard of. The inbreeding and backmassing is just way too scary for me. Plus, the temperamental differences...could be utterly disastrous. You've got many generations on each side bred for a specific temperament...the selection process has been polar opposite. Of course it could be remedied in a few generations, but again, who is going to bother? There is already too great of a divide.

Nan, the part you are missing is that working line breeders are happy when a dog WORKS. They don't care about totally perfect shoulders. I am a picky person who wants the total package, but no way in hell would I trade the temperament, structure, workability I've accomplished in an effort to slightly (if at all) improve on something as particular as a shoulder layback. V is good enough for me. No desire to scrap it all in an effort to go VA. I want strong dogs, strong ligaments, powerful movement, and GOOD TEMPERAMENT, etc.

BTW, I don't see the big deal with a flying trot.  Simple byproduct of correct and balanced conformation, which ALL breeders should strive for.