Gorgeous Photo! - Page 4

The flying trot is pretty to watch, but I agree Jen - " Simple byproduct of correct and balanced conformation, which ALL breeders should strive for." Somewhere I have pictures of wolves doing a "flying trot", and I can PROMISE you they aren't roach-backed or super angulated to achieve it. 

http://vanat.cvm.umn.edu/gaits/trot.html

This is one of my favorote sites about dog movement.

I've told this here before, when I worked as a tech in PA, one of the staff at New Bolton Center could diagnose joint issues in dogs and equines by simply listening to the animal's foot fall whille gaiting at various speeds on various surfaces. It was very impressive to watch his technique. Nothing I know is more telling about an in-condition dog's conformation than the way it moves.

so what are all the judges and breed wardens doing about it??

breeders breed for the judges do they not?

I'm sure you don't consider me a breeder, vk, but just for conversations' sake,  I have never bred "for a judge." I have no idea where you get some of your ideas. I guess big big name SL breeders breed "for judges" but to say "breeders breed for the judges" is grossly over-generalizing. 

Many of my dogs are never even shown in conformation, though I still strive to correct any conformational weakness by selecting complementary partners. Example: Beauty Krasnoocko is a GORGEOUS bitch. In her pic, she looks a bit roached. WRONG. She has very slight angulation in the rear and zero slope to her back. She is an SG dog, not a V dog. Her croup is too short. Her front is beautiful, feet to die for, amazing head, ears a 7.5 out of 10. Only area she needs help with is the rear. I used my Dallas on her, who has too steep of a croup, plenty of hock, good angulation, PERFECT ear set.....V dog.  What I got, thus far, is a very promising pup who has a better croup than either of his parents. Time will tell, but croups usually improve. 

Anyway, my point is, at no point did I say "gee, what will place me in front?" or "What will the judges think?" I just looked at what needed improvement as honestly and unbiased as I could and tried to improve it. You have to be very very hard on your own dogs. Everyone I consulted said I was insane and Beauty is just about perfect, but I see plain as day that her croup would be enough that if I'd seen it honestly represented in a picture, I'd probably not even have bought her (and boy am I glad I didn't! She's a super nice dog!!!) I strive for a V rating in every dog. Some will not make it; I can't control every ancestor's genetics.

But all the perfect conformation in the world won't matter if the dog is not healthy, cannot work, or has poor temperament. So, I'll take the V/SG dogs with kickass temperament, that are gorgeous to look at and healthy over a slightly "better" structured dog who is only good as a lawn and furniture ornament. I don't think any side of the argument is more correct than another. ALL sides (WL, SL, ASL) have blinders on in certain areas and I am just as disgusted by a coyote-looking, overly wound-up working line with a senstive stomach as I am a skittish but beautiful GSL as I am an ASL devoid of any aggression and suffering from overly loose ligaments, unable to jump out of its own way. All are despicable examples of the breed and equally harmful to the breed as a whole when they are lauded as "correct" or "the norm." 

Jen, I wish I could do more than 'like' or 'agree' with your post the once; you

said it, girl !  Will this do for multiple approval ? :      !!!

"Big name" ASL breeders do not breed for specific judges, but they do breed for what is winning in the ring at the time in their area. When they enter shows, they do pay attention to the judge and may not always enter a dog under a certain judge based on a number of reasons. There are no written "rules" about breeding a litter other than both sire and dam must be AKC registered or registerable, so conformation, movement,  and cosmetics are the main reasons why ASL breeder breed what they breed.  There are a handful of breeders who do cross ASL x GSL to try to breed a dog that can succeed in both venues.  They pay attention to temperament and conformation.

In the AKC world there are also quite a few GSD breeders who breed specifically for dogs the can earn advanced OB titles. Those dogs are mainly workinglines or workingline, German showline crosses. In the last 5+  years ASL breeders are paying a lot more attention to performance by showing in OB, so there are starting to be more ASL's earning advanced OB, rally, and herding titles. Few are trained in protection or exhibited at SV show so it's impossible to know how many could or could not earn an IPO title or a V rating.

The GSL breeders I know personally and know about, generally use only titled dogs for breeding. They have higher goals that the ASL breeders so need to breed dogs with the right conformation and temperament to earn IPO's and breed surveys. They do not breed for specific judges either.

Everything Jenni has said above should also enter into the selection of breeding stock regardless of bloodlines or individual goals.

Haha, Hundmutter, thanks. I get tired of the "us and them." I see just as much that makes me sad in working lines as I do GSL and ASL. They are different things, but I don't think one wrong is better than another wrong if they both serve to weaken the breed. 

With regard to Blitzen's statement on ASL and IPO, yeah, I kind of touched on that in one of those rants. Who knows what would/could happen if the selection criteria changed for a few generations? Problem is, it likely won't, just as working line breeders likely won't add ASL because they feel it would be an improvement. Lots of deep ruts in everyone's comfort zones on all sides. 

Other than my own dog, we've only had one half ASL, an AKC CH, at our training classes here in FL. He did earn a Sch3 without a whole lot of effort and a high in trial. He was used at the 2013 GSDCA NS to demonstrate to the show people what a dog needs to do to attain a Sch3 and after he was finished doing bitework with a well known helper, he was introduced to 2 or 3 strange kids who were taught how to work with him a little.  Overall it was a really nice demonstration, but I got the impression that no one was really interested in seeing it. The crowd really thinned out after the conformation awards.

I've never quite understood why so many GSD people seem to be disinterested in anything other than what they do themselves. Not much cooperation in the breed and it seems as if some think that if they look at a dog that is not of their chosen bloodline that they will be turned into a pillar of salt.  East is east and west is west I think.

It makes me sad, too, Blitzen.

The GSDCC recently introduced a new title: Excellent Select. It can only be awarded to dogs that have received a 'select' rating, have passed the TEC (which is like the AKC TT with a traffic-steady portion added on)  and have their hips and elbows done.

I just checked the club website the other day. Only THREE dogs have been awarded that designation since it was first introduced around 2009!  Why so few? All that's needed is for the owner to submit the appropriate paperwork to the CKC!!