Questionable titles - Page 1

When I first started in schutzhund I had a pie in the sky attitude that the SV way was the only way and only titled dogs should be bred.  Well folks, a rude awakening was right around the corner when I saw dogs go out to  California and return in 5 days with an IPO3.  Some of these dogs couldn't even "sitz" on command.  

The corruption goes all the way to the top and I find the lack of integrity absolutely revolting.

Perhaps some of you would like to post your own personal experiences with the SV charade that seems to permeate all of the organizations.  

What can be done to clean it up?

Judy

I don't know that it can be cleaned up, too much money involved what can be done is each individual be responsible for thier own actions/dogs.

I was much the same as you when I first entered the world of SV dogs. didn't take long to realize sometimes a "title" is nothing more than a stamp on a piece of paper.

I still think the SV gets a lot of stuff right and certainly there are people who do it the right way. I just take the good with the not so good and sort through it to find the right dog for me. jmo.

Are you sure we are talking about ''SV'' sound to me like FIFA ???

Do a search for personal protection / estate dogs....look at the prices for and promo for 'pink papered' sch titled ppdogs. The higher the title, the grater the price. There was a guy who buys PSD s who told me he can tell the environmental soundness of an IPO dog by looking at its score book...he sure must be good, because dogs don't need environmental soundness to be titled, nor do they need it to get a bought title.
Years ago, when I was training my dogs for sch, I had a GSL dog that the TD of the club where I proofed my dogs told me id never get the dog titled if I tried for ten years..therefore he suggested just sending his papers to Germany along with the required fee, and get them 'stamped'. Less than a year later, the same day i put the sch 2 on my female, I put the sch 1 on that male. He was not even three years old yet. But I did all my dogs the honest way, training them myself at home concurrently, and i put the BHs on three dogs within a week at two different clubs, then within a month sch1 on one dog, the next weekend sch1 on my female, then three weeks later, sch 2 on that female ( with high score in trial for protection 97 pts) and same day, the sch1 on the SL male I'd been told could never get titled...all with scores good enough to go to next level. All HOT....

I have lost my rose collared glasses regarding the SV but I still believe it is WAY better than the GSDCA. I use to believe that a dog titled in Germany was something special until i was at a club in CA and a "friend of the club" brought out a newly imported Showline (I am not making this a working vs Showline point) and they wanted to do some bite work. The dog has an IPOIII title but did not know what to do with the sleeve. The reason given by the friend of the club was "its a new dog and we have not worked together much". I just busted out laughing as i really thought he was joking. Heck i will hand my line to anyone to hold and my dog will re-act to "pressure" from a helper regardless of sleeve showing. I have heard tons of stories about these German titles or the midnight trials that occur with judges being brought over just to sign score books and have a vacation. But i am still hopeful that this is changing in the US. I know a few SV Judges that really believe in the preservation of the GSD and really have a passion about the dog. I know of clubs here that have been busted for midnight trialing by UScA judges and the UScA forcing investigations to nullify titles. I know that the SV has stripped some judges and reversed titles in Germany.

I am still nieve enough to believe that we can make a change for the better but it requires people standing up and calling BS when BS is in their face regardless of the whiplash of hate. I have no hope for GSDCA :(

It's very disheartening when you are someone that is "smalltime". I don't have a kennel or breeding program, I have 1-2 dogs at a time that I get at 8 weeks and train them myself. I love training and titling so this is something I take very seriously. When my first dog I have raised from puppyhood got his KKL I was so excited, maybe even more proud than my college degree. He is my best friend and we put in so much work together (I title dogs in about a dozen other sports besides SchH). But at the same time, when I went for the KKL I was told by the judge that he didn't really have to heel, I could hold his collar to control him toward the blind. Um, what? First of all the "test" has been so watered down already, it didn't really bring out the power in the dog or showcase any real training and now the JUDGE is telling me I can basically cheat? Little stuff like that happens at every SV type event I go to. Last time, a dog got a KKL for life and never actually engaged on the long bite. I train hard and have trained with many non-sanctioned clubs so I've never had the advantage of a "home field" or trialing on the helpers I trained with. I had to travel two states just to do a BH (and when I did it the judge, an older gentleman SV judge from Germany, was making comments about the female competitor's boobs and butts the entire time, I literally had to slap his hands away when my dog's breeder asked to get a photo with me, him, and my dog). I go to many events alone and I line up my handlers (who are not people I am flying in from Germany). I've never been denied a title or show rating I felt my dog deserved but at the same time it's kind of embarrassing when I put so much effort and heart into my dogs, travel so far for an event that *I* am taking seriously, and then it's basically a joke because owners of other dogs are whispering with the judges and come away with breed survey ratings and titles they clearly did not earn while we were all watching.

Right now I am in limbo as my "good" titled dog is getting older, he has earned his KKL and V rating and I do not campaign for top placements in SV conformation. He is still competing in other sports but not SchH. My younger dog cannot be shown (missing a canine tooth) so I have nothing to enter in SV events right now. Over the past few years I've just been telling myself that I will take it seriously, I will not cheat, I will try to exhibit my dog at his best in front of everyone and fairly earn the ratings or titles. But it's discouraging to see that so many others can get away with underhanded stuff.

The sad thing is that people constantly worry about young people and the future of the sport.  What are we teaching our youth when corruption seems to be the norm?  Granted, not all participants are guilty of cheating but it is becoming more and more common which I find terribly disturbing.  Real titles are not respected or even inquired about.  

Judy, how much cheating in trials have you seen in the past year? How many dogs have you seen with clean performances? What would you say is the percentage of dogs that were given unworthy titles this year?

I haven't had this experience (personally) as far as fake titles on imports. My imports that were supposedly titled certainly knew their stuff when tested. No issue there. But I recall some cheering, then laughing, when my first one ran blinds at a club because there was a running joke that imported dogs never actually know how to run blinds. I was naive and didn't understand at first- I was standing there thinking my dog was doing amazingly well and people were cheering and laughing and I was starting to get upset, LOL! Then someone explained that the last several people to bring a "titled" import to the club had discovered that the dog knew next to nothing, and the better ones could do some excercises but none of the last several could run blinds. There were chatters of "wow, this one is actually trained" etc.  Is this something seen more in conformation or in working trials? Or show dogs needing to pass working trials for breed surveys? I'm not trying to start a war between lines; I am genuinely curious where people are seeing it more.