Questionable titles - Page 5

A strong grass root GSD exhibitor-breeder-trainers can make finding the real-deal easier. You will need to move away from key board.

-gsdstudent

How do you expect a "grassroots effort" to be done in a community that has "dual membership bans", zero understanding of how FCI administrative rules work in conjunction with the SV & AKC rules and the current cohort of schutzhund folks refusing to the address the younger generations perceptions about dog training and club memership responsibilites, in an INCLUSIVE manner?

Without the "keyboard" this "dirty laundry" wouldn't even be out for public comment and review.

The idea of the SV is a good... the way they carry things out sometimes is whats killing them.

Thankfully I have only seen this happen once in a Sch event. At our club trial last year someone entered their showline bitch for a BH. Pretty little thing, aside from the roach back and the weak ligaments, but I digress. As trial secretary, I was the one scanning for microchips. All of the other dogs were cool and ignored me, or were all "HAI I LUVS YOU", but this poor little SL COWERED and was SO skittish the owner had to restrain her to be scanned. And she continued to cower and shy away from people (ie the group) throughout the exercises. But passed her BH no problem and has since been bred at least once. The judge was a SL breeder and raved about what a nice little bitch she was. I'm just standing there like "....really?"

But I'm thankful to be able to say that is the only real issue I've seen along these lines at any of the USCA/SV trials I've been too. All of the other ones I've thought were very fairly judged.

Forgot to add: I recently got into an arguement with a breeder aquaintence of mine about this. She breeds oversized, longcoat showlines (one of her "prized bitches" had to have her ears taped as a puppy because they were soft). Nope, SV titles are terrible, have no meaning whats so ever, you can always get bad hips to pass, or any titles you want if you just send them to Germany. Says the person whos be-all-end-all is UKC. LOL

Thankfully I have only seen this happen once in a Sch event. At our club trial last year someone entered their showline bitch for a BH. Pretty little thing, aside from the roach back and the weak ligaments, but I digress. As trial secretary, I was the one scanning for microchips. All of the other dogs were cool and ignored me, or were all "HAI I LUVS YOU", but this poor little SL COWERED and was SO skittish the owner had to restrain her to be scanned. And she continued to cower and shy away from people (ie the group) throughout the exercises. But passed her BH no problem and has since been bred at least once. The judge was a SL breeder and raved about what a nice little bitch she was. I'm just standing there like "....really?"

But I'm thankful to be able to say that is the only real issue I've seen along these lines at any of the USCA/SV trials I've been too. All of the other ones I've thought were very fairly judged.

Forgot to add: I recently got into an arguement with a breeder aquaintence of mine about this. She breeds oversized, longcoat showlines (one of her "prized bitches" had to have her ears taped as a puppy because they were soft). Nope, SV titles are terrible, have no meaning whats so ever, you can always get bad hips to pass, or any titles you want if you just send them to Germany. Says the person whos be-all-end-all is UKC. LOL

-Dawulf

A marginal BH pass is not intended for breeding purposes, because the BH is nothing more than a base legal requirement for pet owners, of certain dog breeds, in Germany.  For example, if the owner of this dog, that marginally passed the BH, moved to Germany with that dog, they would need to show proof of a passed BH for insurance purposes.  Therefore the BH test standard can not be too difficult because the current purpose of the test in Germany is for pet owners to get into compliance with the law, merely to show proof of dog training.

Here is an excerpt from one of the links I posted below:

In the State of Niedersachsen, for example, first-time dog owners have to provide proof of competence, which can be gained by attesting participation in a companion dog obedience test (BH exam). So-called 'dangerous dogs' can also reduce the constraints by successfully completing such a test. For this purpose, usually one or several courses or else individual training is booked with a dog trainer.

http://www.uni-goettingen.de/en/pet-study-pet-ownership-as-economic-factor-in-germany/500479.html.

http://www.nds-voris.de/jportal/?quelle=jlink&query=HundHaltG+ND&psml=bsvorisprod.psml&max=true&aiz=true#jlr-HundHaltGND2011pP7\

As for the longcoat showline, she has UKC customer base, so the SV standard is of no consequence to her.

@Templar - I believe the more you get out and get with different clubs you will see there is a huge world between the experiences. First thing (as this is just a personal pet peeve) in Schutzhund we do not have decoys, we have helpers, and even then we have two types of helpers: Trial Helpers and Training Helpers (some can do both but most trial helpers are not training helpers, their egos just make them act like they are). Also, please really look that the club structure you are going to. Most SchH clubs are membered by people who make their living outside of the dog world and the clubs generally charge just enough to cover the expenses of running the club. Then there are clubs where the Training Director feeds his/her family by breeding, training, boarding and generally these clubs are even on the Training Directors land.  This type of "club" is generally used to bolster the Training Directors business and feed into their cash flow.

I will agree with you and momosgarage on several points though, one of these being the stressing to new people the amount of time and dedication it takes to compete in this sport. I am an example of the "bad people" who will pull you to the side and tell you all the horrors of the hours of time spent training. I will point out to you that if you want to be competitive in this sport you will probably not achieve it by only training at club 2 - 3 times a week. Most guys when they start coming around and getting active soon start asking about doing helper work because, IMO, they think its cool. They are so eager to want to put on a sleeve and want to work dogs but then get their feelings hurt when there are not people wanting them to work their dogs. Trial helper work is the ONLY aspect of helper work that can be 'easily' taught as all you learn are the mechanics of how to run the routine, present the bite bar and get an idea of how to catch a long bite. Learning how to be a training helper is not so simple and requires a lot of time, because you need a lot of dog experience. For example, want to spot a green helper at club, look for the one who pops their whip a lot. and then ask them why :). I have received a TON of training at clubs outside of my own and have NEVER paid for any of it. Sure, i have to pay when i go to events and seminars that is just the nature of Seminars and why clubs host them. The overwhelming majority of people in this sport are very willing to share their knowledge with you free of charge, that is, unless they make a living from dogs. And to another point that I agree with momosgarage on is yes, all of this "Free Knowledge" does come with strings attached. Most people want to see a commitment from you before they start really interacting with you. Why? because 1 out of every 15 people who "check out" SchH sticks around, this and ring sports require a lot of time training and you don't get to see results quickly. This is the same reason most people quit after a Bachelor's degree and do not pursue a Masters and why even fewer earn a PhD. And guess what, not all dogs, GSDs included, can be successful at SchH, those dogs do not have the genetic material to pass the tests, SchH is the Formula 1 of the dog sport world IMO. The dog MUST be able to flip between drives period, if they cant, oh well, SchH is not the sport for that dog. I am so tired of people wanting to water it down more so that everyone gets a ribbon, or in this case A LICENSE TO BREED!!!

Why? because 1 out of every 15 people who "check out" SchH sticks around, this and ring sports require a lot of time training and you don't get to see results quickly.

-Cutaway

Thats why I keep talking about the FH, STP and RH as stopgap training.  Of course not every person and/or dog can handle IPO and the required training schedule.  The PROBLEM is that the clubs have not come up with ways to keeping these people "interested" and "involved" by saying:

"You know what, your dog isn't likely to make much progress in IPO, however there is ANOTHER option, lets get you started on the BH and tracking with the goal of getting the FH"

Right now, as you say, only 1-in-15 sticks around when you "give them the talk".  Tell you what, next time you tell them what I said above and I GUARANTEE that more than 1-in-15 will stay, not waste your time and EARN THE TITLE.  But the important part, is that beyond that initial change MADE BY YOU, I'd bet my house, that a portion of those who title in FH, will get a another dog in a few years and start doing things the WAY YOU WANT with that NEXT dog.

THATS HOW YOU BUILD A COMMUNITY!

grass roots; I got into dogs as a profession first, AKC dogs shows next and Schutzhund IPO type sports next. There were 2 clubs when i began and they still exist. I do not think it is all luck if you meet good people who share with you and grow you as a GSD person. I do not think it is all luck if you meet the poopie end of the stick all of the time either. A good grass root person will make their own luck. 

I keep wondering why MomosGarage hasn't started his own club and implemented all his wonderful new ideas. Nothing foments change like success!

@momosgarage - You are assuming that this is not done :) Again, generally (same 1 out 15) will show up for one or two tracking sessions and then quit because its not fun... We have very limited tracking resources here in our region. This requires getting up supper early, making a 60 - 90 minute drive and getting a track laid all before 5 a.m. The SAR and AKC groups here in my area actual shut down from may/june - oct/nov because of the heat and ants.

But our club absolutely supports and encourages members to pursue Non-Title Training degrees such as FPr; TR, UPr, OB, StP. The only thing we do not permit is Protection work with out doing Tracking and OB therefore, as i am sure you noticed, APr is not on the list. We make no apologies for this either.

I am impressed regarding your burn out rate. I find it very disheartening to continue to make the drive, train with new members while your dog sits in the vehicle and then the excuses of why they 'cant train today' start coming. As a club we have to circulate new members so that we do not get jaded by spending time training and teaching only to have them walk away at the end with the same excuse: I don't have the time to do this, weekends are reserved for family and i work during the week... Some of our older (in terms of length in the sport) members now just flat refuse to work with noobs until the noob has proven them self. BTW, its not the millennials that we have a problem washing out with as much as the mid 30's and up group.  

the main value of titles and awards is recognition and acknowledgement by your peers of the culmination of your skill, work and dedication.

it is a time of celebration and a permanent record of achievement.

what sort of loser derives value from a title they did not earn.

Good question.   I suppose where they also breed, it helps with £$£$£$£.