any insight on this breeding pair? - Page 3

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by joanro on 16 September 2015 - 14:09

Blitzen says; '......but in our small club our members don't buy their titles either. I see them working hard and often with their dogs and they get them titled the right way; barring unforeseen circumstances,....'

That doesn't mean it doesn't happen by some kennels, nor that dogs don't come into this country from EU that have fake titles...that's all the breeder wants to sell the pups for thousands, is imported 'titled' parents. I know of people who have been douped into buying imports that are supposedly titled and the dog is really untrained.

by Blitzen on 16 September 2015 - 15:09

I'm sure and I'm also sure that buyers get duped by plenty of breeders who don't title too.


by joanro on 16 September 2015 - 15:09

No, buyers are NOT 'duped' by breeders not titling, because most people are buying dogs, not titles. Its only the gsd breed that has a prerequisit of 'titles' to being produced.....but look what the dogs under sv has become after a century of their rule over the breed. Even the German police wont use their own breed. Not a very good recommendation for 'title' first.


by Blitzen on 16 September 2015 - 16:09

Seriously.......no one has ever bought a dog from untitled parents that wasn't as represented by the seller based on BS about the parents?


by joanro on 16 September 2015 - 16:09

'...no one has ever bought a dog from untitled parents that wasn't as represented by the seller based on BS about the parents?'

Really? you think titles eliminates that? If titled parents are all it takes for every pup to be excellent, why all the talk about 'improving one line by crossing with the other line'. People tell bs about dogs especially when they are titled...like the dog will save yr az from thugs because its a ipo3 .
And if you are lumping show titles, ( ie, conformation ) and protection titles together as equal test, then how do show titles make for a better, more representative gsd than an untitled protection dog that has proven his worth in real life senarrio? BS abounds in the world of the gsd more so than any breed I have ever seen....the fanciers are their worst own enemy for the viability of the breed. Why do you suppose insurance co have the breed black listed? Why do you suppose akc rules have the gsd breed as the ONLY breed requiring a loose lead temperament test? After all, the dogs in the ring that caused the rule to be imposed didn't come from byb-ers, they didn't just come in off the street...no, they came from a line of 'TITLED' ancestors and show titled parents. Titles dont make the dog and certainly not the breed. If they did, the gsd as a breed would not be in the state its in.


by Blitzen on 16 September 2015 - 17:09

Uh that's not what I said. This is what I said........

I'm sure and I'm also sure that buyers get duped by plenty of breeders who don't title too.

and..........

I haven't been in the breed as long as you have, Student, but in our small club our members don't buy their titles either. I see them working hard and often with their dogs and they get them titled the right way; barring unforeseen circumstances, they don't breed their dogs until they do.

and.........

Without titles how does one determine which dogs are breed worthy?

no response to that yet


susie

by susie on 16 September 2015 - 17:09

The main difference in breeding German Shepherd dogs between our countries is the difference in titled/untitled dogs. Sure there are "fake titles", but I said this more than once, it´s the exception, not the norm, never has been the norm in my country ( and I walked through the dog club dirt almost daily for more than 30 years ).
I don´t want to miss the process of training and titling - a lot of dogs are not able to do it - without this rule prior to breeding all of them could be bred without problems... that´s an idea I don´t like at all, a nightmare. To title dogs is the first part of selection, not more, not less.

Another difference between our countries is that we don´t tend to believe in titles only - in case we want to work and train our dogs seriously, we want to see sire and dam, later on the pups, in reality, we don´t tend to believe in advertisements and tell tales ...

Over here the vast majority of puppies used for sport or real work are picked up personally, mostly from breeders out of the neighborhood. No doubt why...

Sure a good dog will be a good dog with or without titles, but a breeder who never trained and titled ( in your country at least WORKED ) his own dogs, never will have the experience to distinguish between a good dog and a good pet.

To Boomer: There are a lot of really good dogs in the ped - the question is: Did the second and first generation inherit the genes or not?!?
That said you need to know sire and dam personally. In case they are good working dogs, the chances for the pup are not bad. I hope you are able to see proof.
 


bubbabooboo

by bubbabooboo on 16 September 2015 - 17:09

The base line predictor of the qualities and personality of a puppy or human child is the qualities and personality of the parents. The largest factor influencing the expression of these qualities and personality traits is environment. The genetics of the parents gives a window of possible outcomes. Where the child or puppy lands in that window of possible outcomes is totally dependent on environment, health, and education. Titles, degrees or Nobel prizes have nothing to do with breeding future Nobel Prize winners. With puppies it is all about the sire and dam and how the puppies are fed, reared, and educated. If you know the sire, dam, and their close relatives well there will be few surprises in the offspring they produce and the titles such as Police K9, IPO, or AKC will not alter or influence that outcome whatsoever.

yogidog

by yogidog on 16 September 2015 - 18:09

Blitz your long enough in the breed you should have enough knowledge to determine weather a dog is breed worthy. Most titles are given to the click so if your depending on that to rate your dog. No wonder the breed is so ######.

by Blitzen on 16 September 2015 - 18:09

Well, I don't breed, Yogi, have never bred a litter of GSD's so I haven't contributed to the current #####. My last 2 GSD's have been aready titled older dogs needing homes. I trust that breeders who do title and who don't title are well enough versed on their dogs genetic make up that they can make educated decisions. Frankly had I done my homework and understood the lack of cooperation and outright hostility in this breed, I'd have continued on with my original breed. I love my GSD's but ....It really seems to me that the SV has set down the right breeding guidelines intended to protect and advance the breed. It's up to the breeders to walk the walk.

My questions are and always have been ........ if one doesn't title, what criterium does one use to determine breed worthiness in their breeding stock.  If one does title, then what's the purpose of titling if the titles aren't earned honestly?  Both rhetorical questions I know. I just don't think it's right for "titlers" to act as if all untitled dogs are crap or for "untitlers" to act as if all titled dogs are crap.






 


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