any insight on this breeding pair? - Page 4

Buying pups can be like a box of chocolates you never know what your going to get i bought a pup once a daughter of a winner of the BSP she turned out to be one of worse working temperaments i have ever had i have also gotten pups out of both parents that have had extremely nice working drives but not able consistantly replicate that in offspring.My point is that many times a untitled dog can produce better that a titled dog you just never know, thats why some will not even purchase a young pup but they buy when older to get a better feel for how good that working temperament really is.

"If one does title, then what's the purpose of titling if the titles aren't earned honestly?"
That´s easy to answer for my country - our dogs have to be titled - in this case a scrupelous breeder or exhibitor may get the idea that his beautiful male/female will not be worth a dime without a title - and that´s the truth. Can´t be bred, can´t be shown, can´t be sold for good money...
Since we tend to start training our dogs at the age of 3/4 months, these dogs normally are sold in the age of 10/12 months - at least after the youth/young dog class.
"... if one doesn't title, what criterium does one use to determine breed worthiness in their breeding stock."
Not that easy to answer - in this case we have to distinguish between experienced breeders and pet dog breeders - I guess ( no, I know ) the pet dog breeders are the overwhelming majority.

Blitzen, if you ever trained and titled any gsd, you would realize that a 'title' does not equate to breed worthy dog.
I've trained seven gsd for sch, all the way to sch 3...as a friend used to call them, 'untitled sch 3 dog.' I went ahead and titled three of them. One of those two males scored higher than the other one...but that dog I had to make every thing a game, no hard pressure on him or he'd fold. The male that didn't score as high could take as much pressure as could be put on him without being abusive...that dog had more fight drive and heart and desire to win, than any dog ever needs to attain a sch title. Which dog would you think was the better dog, the one that scored the highest? Not me. My point is that titles in no way show the whole picture.

You asked;  ' If one does title, then what's the purpose of titling if the titles aren't earned honestly?'
You are emphasizing titles are imperative before any gsd should be bred. The general public is being indoctrinated to this...they have been led to believe that IPO title equates to quality.....but titles almost always equate to more money for puppies/dogs. So if a dog doesn't have the temperament conducive to being trained for a title, some 'breeders' will 'buy' the titles.
Susie mentioned its not common in Germany, but it does happen in this country. Also, dogs imported that are supposedly titled but turn out to not even be trained is not rare. The import ped says the dog is titled, so puppies from them are sold for thousands...follow the money. Titles equate to higher price for puppies and supposed 'executive protection' dogs with only IPO title.

The simple answer is not all titled dogs are always breed worthy and not all untitled dogs are always unbreed worthy.

Any person that has been around long enough has seen some of the bad temperament titled dogs that have made it to America shores out of Germany.

Joan, honestly do you even read my posts or think about what I'm trying to say before you tell me that I'm wrong? It makes no difference to me if you title you dogs or not. I assume you have the experience to do it right with or without titles. I would never presume to suggest you don't and that applies to other members here too.

Show me where I 'told you you are wrong' .
I answered you, I didn't say you are right or wrong. ;-p.
You asked why people don't get titles honestly, I tried to explain through examples and experience.

Titling a dog is only one yard stick in measuring a dogs breed worthyness or not, one can read and understand temperament and train their dogs in other training venues where by gettting a good read on what a dog is all about, im not negative on sport dogs but its not the only way to see temperament.

Here's your question, blitzen;  ' If one does title, then what's the purpose of titling if the titles aren't earned honestly.'
And, you have asked repeatedly what criteria one uses to determine breed worthiness if they don't title...well, I tried to show you that titles don't always equate to a breedworthy dog..I know this, I know that a dog titled by a good trainer who understands how to train a dog to be able to pass, does not make the dog breedworthy. Therefore, titles can be misleading. Training, exposure, testing instead of training a rote routine is more telling, IMO.

Bundishep, true. But too many people put all the weight on a pedigree with titles to judge the quality of breeding pair and offspring without any knowledge of the actual dogs...so they think $2500 or 3000 for a puppy is justified.