One Breed - Page 4

Gustav, thumbs up to you. I'd like to share my experiences regarding my latest dog. Based on my experiences with previous GSD's, I had some ideas about the type of dog I wanted. I found a breeder who seemed passionate about wanting to produce solid dogs and the two of us had many discussions about exactly what I wanted. My number one priority was, as I put it, a balanced dog. I wanted it to be healthy with a strong drive. I wanted a dog that I could share my home with, exercise with and enjoy working through obedience and some level of Schutzhund work. That, in my granted somewhat limited experience, is the essence of the definition of the breed. I didn't expect for the dog to ever be deemed a champion in any of that. I just like the breed and what it can offer.

Here's where things go sideways. My "selected" breeder produces from imported West German Show lines. He typically has four females. I relied on his knowledge of breeding and examination of his puppies to match me with the pick of the litter best suited to what we discussed I wanted. Meanwhile, I visited the one Schutzhund club anywhere near where I live. Wanna guess what my reception was? First word out of their mouth when I mentioned I was getting a new pup and interested in doing some Schutzhund work was- WL or SL. I was told that no way would my dog ever do well in Schutzhund, despite the history of its pedigree seemingly doing pretty well (dare I say good enough to earn the title). My pups, dam actually has a SCH II title, which as I understand it is somewhat unusual because the females only need a SCH I to potentially earn the KKL 1. None of that seemed to matter to the club president. I can understand the desire of the club to not want to spend time and effort on an animal that couldn't possibly handle the training. But, this particular club was more recreation, by admission of several members who let me know that they "just want to see what their dog can do". That's awesome, but jeez, what a turn-off to have to go through the gauntlet. Btw- he breeds WL dogs that several members owned and admitted where “a handful” because they “always want to go and have no off switch”.

My point is that it seems like most people, in some form or fashion, want the best for the breed. There's just a huge gulf between what that really means. AND, it doesn't help at all that my puppy, now 11 months old does seem to have some issues. Particularly, some of her (yes her, my first female ever) seem to be "typical" problems often associated with some of the show lines. She is very angulated (can't tell you how many times people stop me and want to know what's wrong with my dog that makes her walk so funny) and worse, instead of the confident, balanced dog I want, she is extremely nervous and “starts” whenever anyone gets within a foot of her ( a development that happened in spite of extensive socialization). She does GREAT around me, but she would almost certainly either fail or be disqualified because of her behavior and lack of adhering to the standard in terms of temperament. That, from a dog conceived in Germany, with a history of at the least a good pedigree.

From an admittedly amateur admirer of the breed, this is all maddening. I was pissed off at the Schutzhund club guy for dissing my dog based only on his opinion of the line. I was/am pissed off at my breeder because my dog seems to not be balanced at all. I just feel disappointed because there doesn’t seem to be any middle ground. My dog/puppy is stunningly gorgeous. She has a strong ball/prey drive. She is affectionate and full of life and even pretty good around other dogs. But, she appears to lack some crucial GSD traits, like confidence.

I don’t know what the answer is, but I can tell you that it’s discouraging to see and read such argumentative discourse about the breed.

I truly do think the change has to start in the show ring. Like you mentioned...until black/red isn't the only thing finishing high and everything else just being moved to the back, nothing will change. There are plenty of V rated, breed surveyed WL that get shunned because they're not exactly what the show is looking for and don't have any chance of finishing high. Doesn't help that the show circuit also seems to bring much more money than the working circuit...that insentivizes the breeders to only base their breeding decisions on looks. A sieger, or high placing dog brings huge money to whoever owns it. Just like a national champion will make a ton of money for that owner.

There are also reasons why WL people won't turn to show dogs when they need genetics.

I've seen enough mixed breeding to know that those dogs don't make any kind of dent in either world. Most end up as pets to never be seen or heard from again and it will never be the moderate/mediocre dogs that make a shift in the breed.

Beeker, I can identify with your predicament. Especially the 'reception' you received from the sch club members. One of my gsd, which I raised all from puppies and trained and titled myself, was a gsl male. At the same time I was training him, I was concurrently training my cz import pups for sch. During one of the sessions in bite work,the training director of the club suggested I send my dog to Germany for midnight special title...he said in fact just send the papers and keep your dog home. He said you won't be able to title this dog in ten years. Well, I ignored his comments, continued my training program at my own field at home, with all my dogs. Long story short, within the year I titled not only that GSL male, but also my WL male and female. I had titled all three/dogs within three months, traveling to available trials in three different states to get bh's and sch titles done....and my showline male scored higher in all three phases than my WL male. My female made high in trial in protection when I put the sch two on her ( which was the same day I put the sch 1 on my GSL male). And to top it all off, I had entered my SL male in two conformation shows both were national Seiger Shows with dozens of entries in his class. With zero prior show experience he placed nineth in the first show at six Mo old. The second Seiger show I entered him in, I already had put the sch 1 on him and he was the youngest in the the 18 -24 Mo class where he placed tenth or there abouts. So don't pay any attention to the negative comments...do it for your dog and you.

Dogs and subsequently dogbreeds are created by humans. Therefore very dependable on human behavior. 

I will try to explain this statement by comparing two different developments in the breed that happened about the same time (1980's) in the history of the breed.

In late seventies/early eighties the booming Asian economies specially japan lead to the first show dogs being for astronomical amounts in those days. This spawn the popularity of this type of dogs and many breeder changed there breeding philosophy to meet the growing demand. Typical of western human behavior the mass demanded dogs that look exactly like the ones being sold for 100.000$ as a pet. These dog owners could not handle a WL anyway.

At more or less the same time while the western lines were at the mercy of human vanity, the east Germans  whom were separated from this development by reasons we all know introduced their Wertmessziffer(1986)system with means something like measured value number. This was a simple and efficient system to rate dogs for breeding purposes.

For example a 6545/55 dog as a result would be, power full built, with ideal constitution, good angulation, relaxed and friendly yet hard when provoked/ fighting instinct and hardness very good.

This would be the ideal one breed dog that can work and showed at the same time.

This is just an example of how historical events, circumstances and human nature effects dogbreed.

The popularity of Chihuahua breed these days spawned by celebs will definitely affect the breed in one way or the other.

However the likely ness of the GSD becoming one breed again will depend on another episode in the history of the breed.

 

 

 

 

One more thing I'd add; understand your dog's limitations and train him accordingly, as any dog should be trained as an individual instead of cookie cutter training often practiced at clubs.

Great post Joanro, thanks for sharing your experience with us

Allan 

IMO the SV could do more to bring things together in an organised way. If at the Sieger show the judging placed the dogs by the overall value of the dog to the breed instead of as beauty contest to satisfy the marketplace the benefit to the breed would improve. For example, I can remember the President (pre Hermann Martin) being asked why he placed what seemed an average dog in a fairly high position. His response was that he was there for the working people because he passed on to his progeny character and working ability. He wanted the dog to be used more.

The Sieger show should be for a proper assessment to judge all aspects of the dog so that Breeders could make better judgements on what to use and why. This is how it was in the beginnings of the breed and the SV should return to this now!

Mackenzie

I would also like to see a grey, black or bi colour in the VA Group. This problem of colour was caused by the President of the SV Hermann Martin when he, without consultation or a vote from the Club on the topic, unilaterally decided that there was no place for dogs of these colours in the show lines. Anyone who opposed him was just moved aside. These colours are still in the breed standard and it is up to Club Members of the SV to get them introduced once again. 

IMO the Martin brothers did a huge disservice to this breed and pushed for what fattened their pockets, not much different than what Lothar Quoll is doing now! But onto the original topic, I definitely see two different breeds of dog when i look at the American Shepherd (AKC) vs the German Shepherd. This is where i am all for their being a split in the breed as the American's do not breed to the same standard nor do they seem to focus much of thier attention and resources to health, tempemant and working abilities. I have found it to be common practice by American breeders to start breeding their American Line shepherds as soon as they earn their 'Champion' or 'Grand Champion' title often between 11 - 16 months of age. The American show world seems disinterested in tempermant, drives and work abilities. 

Let the americans have their own lines and change the name

I really didn´t want to post here, because by now everybody should know how I think about German Shepherd dogs ( there are good dogs, and there are dogs that shouldn´t be bred, no matter out of which line ).
Beeker´s and Joan´s post made me change my mind.
It doesn´t matter where your dog came from, for training only the current dog is important.

Beeker, there is no perfect dog, a dog is always the result of nature and a lot of nurture. Don´t give up, a lot of 11 months old females seem to be a nightmare, a lot of working lines do have serious issues, too, why do you think there are that many dogs for sale out there?
We are not able to see your dog, but give her a chance, try to find another club, in case there is no other IPO club in your surrounding, try to find something else. The main reason why "our" dogs seem to be better than "your" dogs is : WE TRAIN THEM.

At that point Joan stepped in - she didn´t believe in "lines", but she believed in her dog, and she believed in her training skills, she didn´t care about lines at that point, and that´s the only way to go, in case you want to develop your dog and yourself.

There are good working lines, and there are good show lines, I never understood why people need to breed for "winners" instead of good dogs.
Looking at the amount of "working lines" bred worldwide only a very, very small percentage really is "outstanding", but everybody is willing to accept these exceptional dogs as "normal" for working lines - pure nonsense, take a look at reality.
Same with "show lines" - only a very, very small percentage is shown on the Siegershow....

The goal always should be a healthy dog, looking like a German Shepherd, able to work.
Out of which line? I don´t care.