Sloping backlines and over angulation - Page 13

I'd like to post a couple of pictures here that show dramatically what the increase in angulation and slope of the topline has done to the GSD gait. Both are of very well-known dogs. I have chosen the photos specifically so the dog is at the same phase of the gait, so you can more clearly see the differences. Both dogs are on a tight leash, though Labo imay be pulling harder than Bodo.

Labo v. Schollweiher

Bodo v. Lierburg

Notice how the lowering of the croup and increased angulation of the pelvis, when combined with the lengthening of the second thigh causes Labo to have to swing his thigh outwards in order to fit his leg under his body. This cannot be good for the joints over the long term!

As someone who has worked with horses for many years, I'm very familiar with the trot. The thing that makes a trot such a desirable gait is that the weight is distributed evenly between the front and rear legs, thus reducing fatigue. A good trot is as regular as a metromone beat. It's the gait the wolf uses to cover long distances of 40 to 60 miles in ONE DAY as it hunts for food. It's the gait a herding dog uses to herd sheep when it has to work all day long.

Here's another picture of Labo from a different angle, showing more clearly how the rear leg has to be angled out from the body.

Yes, I know pulling on the leash does affect the gait, and that has to be taken into account. However, Bodo is also on a tight leash.

Pictures of showline dogs gaiting on a loose leash are hard to find, but I do have a couple, and they clearly show the weight is still not evenly distributed betwen front and rear:

 

Vegas:

The position of the back legs when gaiting will always be at the centre under the dog to give an even drive. If the foot remains outside of that point the dog would start to roll over the backline as we see when dogs are ambling.

In the two pictures Bodo is trotting on a taught lead whereas Labo is driving hard into the lead. In Labo’s case that does two things it tightens the backline to hide any slackness or softness in the backline, the second thing is that the harder a dog pulls the length of stride extends a little further. It is a handling trick. Off lead gaiting now is done at a faster speed which, again, makes the backline tighter and the stride length longer. In the showring today we do not see many dogs walking or trotting as was the case in the 70’s and 80’s. Things changed under Hermann Martin.

Mackenzie

You know everyone has an opinion, but everyone does not have an informed opinion. When I hear people second guess Manfred Heyne on proper gait and structure for herding, based on training hundreds and watching thousands of herding dogs over thirty plus years, ( notwithstanding his high level of achievement) and then I hear folks second guess him based on WHAT in comparison to what his opinion is based on....then it becomes evident how the breed has lost its way as working dog in most quarters. When it comes to performance based things with mammals, theory does not consistently translate into performance because of the aspect of what's between the ears is so important. Whether it is drive or character, they propel and shape the use of physical construction. Many ASL and WGSL may have theoretically perfect measurements hypothetically; but to do the type of work this breed was fashioned for requires equal amounts of stamina and hardness of character to compliment the physical structure. Therein lies the problem for theorist. Just as in the wild, the practical application of the theory must work on consistent basis for structure to be valid in WORK. LONGTIME practitioners of work understand how important the determination and strength of character are, as they must provide the fuel for the stamina and hardness necessary to function with the adversity aspects of work.( and this is any work) This is neither measured or developed in show and now sport also. So the result is the structure has peeled off into aesthetic directions, that the venue in which they are crowned no longer consistently connects with the work aspect. If the theoretical structure created cannot perform because the formula used to create this structure has altered the character or structure to a degree of no longer consistent in translating to work, then said structure is faulty by default. People who rely on this breed for work fully understand this from experiences, but folks lacking longtime experience in practical application foolishly think you can just take theoretical structure and the dog must translate to superior working specimen. Yet, since the split of the breed in seventies and the insistence on a color must be associated with superior structure( and that is the reality of testing for structure....show world), the superior structure no longer translates into superior working dog in practice or the minds of those that prepare dogs to work. So something is wrong from a practical/reality point of view.....plain and simple. I only entered this discussion because the question put to board was in reference to OVERANGULATION and WORK. Primarily because from four decades of working dogs and being associated with working dogs I KNOW that OVERANGULATION has no benefit to working dog. What is definition of OVERANGULATION ?, I'm sure it varies for many but correct angulation must work in the working paradigm or else it really is no more than untested theory.

@ Mackensie....what is the working application for the type of gaiting instituted by Herman Martin as opposed to the type of gaiting by Bodo. Just curious?

 Gustav.

Hello Gustav - When Hermann Martin became President he introduced the breed to fast gaiting on and off the lead. This was a move away from the previous Sieger Show methods which was to walk the dogs for a period of time and then allow them to open up to a trot and later off the lead at a faster trot. Hermann Martin's new way produced a spectacle which was no use all in in judging movement because the speed covered up so many things. As one Koermeister said to me at the time it was introduced "if I want to go dog racing I will buy a greyhound", he also said "I cannot judge dogs at this speed".

Fast gaiting and pulling so hard serves no purpose in assessing the movement because no dog, or, handler can work at that speed that the long periods of work demand.

It makes the dogs look spectacular and that is it. Just a spectacle.

Mackenzie

Excellent post, as usual, Gustav!

Mackenzie, I agree with what you are saying, but really don't see the point you are trying to make. No matter how hard Bodo was pulling at the leash, his gait would STILL not resemble Labo's, as his structure is different. There is no getting around the fact that curving the topline, thus lowering the croup, and also lengthening the second thigh has totally changed the GSD's gait. Front end and back end are no longer in balance, and the thrust from the back legs is now directed more upward than it was before, lifting the front end, and causing the rear feet to hit the ground slightly in advance of the fore feet at the trot.

If you want a 4 legged animal to show a balanced, correct trot, the front end and back end need to be at the same level (didn't the standard used to call for a level back??) and then the front and rear legs can work in harmony. Remember they used to say the back should show minimal movement during the trot, and you should be able to balance a glass of wine on the dog's back? That's the sort of trot I think is really efficient, as there is a minimum of wasted motion.

Horse on treadmill. Notice how little the back moves!  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kr-BgUQ0BZo

Dingo trotting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPJPE9oNN7A  Agian, the back moves very little.

Edit: we cross-posted! Yes, I agree, it's just a spectacle, and it's impossible to see what is actually happening at that speed.

Here's the modern showline dog at a trot. Notice the gait at about the 4 minute mark, where the movement of the back is most obvious. Also, in the earlier part of the video, there are times when it looks like the front end is trotting and the rear end is...doing something different (trying to canter).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOg34w1DGw8

Do not disagree with Gustav's post. Do disagree with the dogs used as gsiring examples, as they're both awful

Bodo is locked in the knees and looks to be falling on the forehand, Labo has no front and is hinged in the back

Xeph, what does locked in the knees mean? I haven't heard that term before.

I think Bodo's (or Bernd's) trotting movement is pretty close to ideal. Smooth, fluid and effortlessly covering a lot of ground. I don't see either the locked knees or the forehand falling aspect !