Sloping backlines and over angulation - Page 18

Mac, really its not far from the theme at all. Quite the contrary as it gives an example of useful structure as opposed to what you questioned in the title.

Joan, I really know nothing about this sport, but on Youtube you can find a lot of videos - the dogs are galloping in most of the vids - I guess, if even possible, they do gallop in a short / medium length race. Why should they trot in case the musher wants to win a race, and it´s possible to gallop for the dogs due to terrain and condition?

Mack, "over"angulation is not good for the breed ...

We began by discussing the GSD and not comparing this breed with any other.

I have never ever said and, nor will I, that over angulation is good for the breed.

Black Malinois - If you read the thread from from the beginning you will find the answer to your question.

Mackenzie

Susie; "Joan, I really know nothing about this sport, but on Youtube you can find a lot of videos - the dogs are galloping in most of the vids - I guess, if even possible, they do gallop in a short / medium length race. Why should they trot in case the musher wants to win a race, and it´s possible to gallop for the dogs due to terrain and condition?"

Susie, dogs' most efficient gait for very long distances covering more than 100 miles per day is a steady trot. Remember, the long distance dogs covering more than 1,000 miles in 8 days are pulling a sled containing mandatory survival gear, which includes a cook stove and bags of kibble plus frozen chunks of meat for snacks along the trail. The dogs you likely watched running full out and probly sliding around tight turns in the trail pulling an empty sled with musher are sprint dogs in sprint races.
Look up Iditarod on YouTube,there are probably some videos of that longest sled dog race in the world.

Because of that I distinguished between the different distances... 

Quote Susie: "Mack, "over"angulation is not good for the breed ..."

The only question is about the definition of "over". For me, any more angulation than the lithe/athletic GSDs of a few decades back (similar to Joan's pictures of her dogs from several pages back and who look very similar to the fully functional Belgian Shepherds or Dutch Shepherds or the GSDs that used to win the Sieger-shows as breed representatives at one time), is "over" and starts compromising abilities to move, turn and jump well. The mastiff type, roachy/slope backed dogs that seem to be winning the showdog Sieger show over the past couple of decades have certainly moved away from the ideal, and I guess the standards have been regularly diluted to account for this structural degradation, which in turn, to me, dilutes the value of the "standards" and the people who set them.

The whole world of dogs used for working, have moved away from these specimens, and are laughing at how these dogs look, but clearly the SV and their folks who talk theory, are unaware of the "emperor not wearing any clothes" and are continuing to ooh and aah about the silky, gossamer-like texture of the clothes that the naked emperor is supposedly wearing.

Of course as somebody stated several posts back, due to the selection FOR the above compromised physical traits, the absolutely critical thing that has probably been lost for ever from the showdog lines is "heart" and "nerves" and "courage" which is what contributes to working abilities. Not saying that there is not the rare show specimen that shows "some" fire, but that "fire" is not consistently prepotent (of no further use). You can get back whatever structure you need, in a few generations, but once the "heart" and the "nerves" are gone, you've lost it all, for EVER, regardless of the "trot"......and that's probably the case now.  My only hope is that at least the good working lines will continue to stay true to the "heart" that the breed was known for.

Quoting Manfred Heyne again:

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"Where today can you still find the true breed type?  After 1946 I’ve seen this type only a very few times and then really only in my own dogs.  The current fashionable “ring runners” no longer represent the German Shepherd Dog for me.  All winners in each class of the so-called German Shepherd World Championships should be taken up and put in an animal preserve ─ in wintertime with snow.  The gaiting structure and angulation so favored by the SV leadership and their supporters are nothing more than theory and would actually be a hindrance in the struggle for survival.  Just look at wolves!!  The German Shepherd Dog is supposed to be the most versatile working dog of all, so I must ask myself: what work would this kind of extreme gaiting be useful for other than running around the show ring?  Theory and practice really are two different things."

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Aaykay, the standards haven´t been "regularly diluted" - at least not within FCI - but neither breeders nor judges nor buyers do care enough about the "written" standard ( just think about seize and weight - there would be no problem in case breeders and judges would care about the written standard ).
I tend to think different about the correct angulation - the dogs you think about do lack in angulation, on the other hand a lot of showline dogs are overangulated. Did I talk about the "golden middle" recently?

Once again: The standard was made by men, it was the attempt to create a new breed, NOT looking like wolves, NOT looking like Malinois, but able to do real work by remaining a very good trotter.

Character: At least in my country you are still able to find showlines with good working skills and temperament - even some of the "overdone" dogs do have good work ethics, although out of physical restrictions they are not able to do the same job as their more agile relatives. It´s sad.

Sometimes I dream about breeders only using stable dogs fitting to the standard, no matter which line, because as soon as they´d do this, the split would disappear on its own.

Maybe this will happen one day - more and more outlanders start to buy cheap dogs in Eastern Europe - although that´s not good for the breed as a whole it´s at least good for my country: Less money from outside = less puppies born in my country = our own quality may increase...

Great post, Susie :)

A short add into the conversation... Sadly it's also a fact that VERY few people who are breeding/showing AKC line dogs work their dogs... even to the degree of a CD! I showed many many years ago (70's/80's) and of the Select/ROM dogs maybe one or two would have any kind of working degree. If you look @ the lists of CD/CDX/UD dogs in the Review few were Champions and vice-versa. So working abilities weren't really a priority in choosing breeding stock. Back then (not active now so can't speak as to now) all a show prospect had to do was trot in a circle, and most of the judging was based on a stacked dog, or side-gait.

As well as looking at bone conformation and angles the need to also develop muscle strength and good ligamentation in the rear (especially) is critical, and all too often over looked.

windwalker, that assessment still holds pretty true, unfortunately.

I am training and trialing my dogs in many venues, to at least see what I have...I wish more did. We're aiming for the upper levels of herding and agility, hopefully my dreams will be realized