German shepherd 1957 all the GSD experts here watch good - Page 5

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Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 05 January 2016 - 21:01

Thumbs Up@Susie.


by Haz on 06 January 2016 - 00:01

I have two extremes sitting in my house right now. SL and Mal.
I working and training both dogs. I run them every day and work them every day.

There is really no debate or question as to what superior working structure is.
The Mal is small, square, light on his feet, can turn on a dime, jump and accelerates like a ferrari. He can practically change direction in mid air.
The SL male is large, big boned, droopy jowls, long, angulated pretty much what you see in the show ring these days. Iliano vom Fichtenschlag son.
When he trots it looks very nice, when he walks, jumps or runs..not so much.
I have seen him literally go head over heels on flat ground chasing my Mal..lol.

He is very nice for a SL and a good family PP dog but if I needed a dog for daily work..there is no question which I would have to pick.

That being said there are many very well built WLs that are a happy medium.

aaykay

by aaykay on 06 January 2016 - 04:01

BW, I don't know what background you have in GS dogs or whether you have a biology degree or not (I am an engineer and don't have a biology degree) but either way, to me, the views (on sheepherding/trotting) of a guy like Manfred Heyne, who is able to go against the absolute best in the world and come out tops, year after year, 13 times, is way more credible than a fellow with a biology degree. If you think not, then we are living in 2 different universes.

He also (when alive), did sheepherding as his profession, and bred and used the trotting ability of German Shepherd dogs, in all kinds of weather conditions, for decades, to "proof" what he is saying. He also used and rejected the GS from lines that you are praising, for their painful inability to perform. He is not an armchair biologist, but a guy who has proven himself and his "product", for decades. To me, the views from that source is good enough, when it comes to efficient working structure of a trotting dog like the GSD and/or comparison to a wolf's trotting structure.

Bottomline, man interfering into the structure of dogs, via selective breeding for "beauty", has been the bane of many breeds, including the GSD. Once the breed has been registered as a breed, if it radically changes in such a manner in a short span of time, one need to rename the changed version to something else, than continue to call what we have now, as the GSD, and term the startling changes as "evolutionary change" in a breed's "progression".

To me, something like the below is a good balance between the "old blood" like Klodo (which I consider as an ideal working structure) and "progression" via "evolutionary change" and should really have been frozen in time from a structure perspective (while maintaining the critical temperamental traits like strong and balanced drives, courage, rock-solid nerves and primary/secondary GSD instincts).  

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=176-dick-von-adeloga

On the other hand,  the current version winning in Sieger shows like Zamp or Pakros or Vegas or Remo or Chacco or others of its ilk (which I term as the "nekkid emperor's clothes" phenomenon) makes me cringe.
 


by Bavarian Wagon on 06 January 2016 - 14:01

Feel free to point out where I "praised" any type of line....I'd love to see it myself.

Clearly have some reading comprehension issues so I'll let it go as you also seem to take the word of a sheep herder when it comes to wolf biology...not sure how those two are related but that's alright. MOST dogs, including the over angulated, extreme show line GSDs can move just as much as a wolf does in a day, to deny this is just being highly biased and reaching for a point just to be right.

You missed the whole entire point of my post. There are tons of dogs out there than can herd all day and all night. They don't look like wolves. Shockingly enough an engineer is missing the idea of efficiency and why a GSD's anatomy is a little different from a wolf and many other breeds. Are there extremes? Sure. But the majority of dogs aren't extreme. The majority of dogs I see are actually under-angulated as per the standard and don't have the same efficiency as those that do. Does it matter to working people? Not at all. If the dog has the drive and the energy to perform the task that's asked we don't usually care that it's not as efficient as can be. On top of that many times the dogs that do have the higher efficiency...don't have the drive to perform the work in the first place so they're useless to us anyways. For those of us doing IPO...we need the dog to perform at a high level of drive for 10-20 minutes. Anatomy matters very little in those situations. Only the jump and the wall are really affected but a well balanced, properly angulated dog would have no issue with either obstacle.

Look up some V rated dogs and SG rated working dogs. Watch them work. Watch the way they move. If you take away your bias of the SV, you'll definitely see a fluidity in the movement that is much nicer to watch when it comes to the V rated dogs.

mrdarcy (admin)

by mrdarcy on 06 January 2016 - 14:01

Thumbs UpBavarian WagonThumbs UpThumbs Up


BlackMalinois

by BlackMalinois on 06 January 2016 - 15:01

 

 


B W


IPO today is no any working test even labradors and jack rusell can succeed
in IPO today.


Take your showline dog to the french/belgian  ring jump exercises and find out
yourself how the showline even some  WL anatomy GSD is.99 percent will not succeed this exercises until cat 3.

I bet most of the old school GSD from the earlier days can do.

 


yogidog

by yogidog on 06 January 2016 - 15:01

Put a brain in a Mali and might end up 50% of the most versatile dog in the world so your dog can jump so can a kangaroo but I wouldn't keep one of those either 😊😊

BlackMalinois

by BlackMalinois on 06 January 2016 - 16:01

 

 


Only the GSD people dream in their own fantasies today

The more serious people who work with dogs know already better

 

Thumbs Up

 

 


by Bavarian Wagon on 06 January 2016 - 16:01

First...I don't have showline dogs. I have 100% WGWL. My dogs would easily clear most of the french ring jumps.

SUCCEED is the key word when it comes to ring sports...the dog accomplishes the task, doesn't work in high drive, just goes through the motions and finishes. I don’t just want to SUCCEED, I want to excel. We’re talking two different levels of training and trialing. You’re also kidding yourself if you think that good enough trainers can’t train off-breeds to get through the ring exercises.

Oh and since the main proponent of the FCI has chimed in…how come they’re taking out stick hits? Is it because all those little malinois can’t take the pressure from a soft little stick hitting them across the withers? It’s alright, almost 90% of the time that I’m watching a malinois work it’s a beautiful dance between the helper and the dog to make sure the dog doesn’t tuck tail and blow off before the person with the camera can stop filming. But hey, at least they can jump…and kind of look like wolves? Maybe? If you look at them in the right light? At the right angle? Preferably in a dark room?

But…as always…people resort to extremes to try to prove a point. That one lab or jack russell that earned a title…one dog out of thousands. Who cares? The majority are still working breeds and not the off breeds. Why don’t any do ring? Too small of a sport, not as available. Even as small as IPO is and as distant as some people are from clubs, you’re still more likely to find an IPO club than you are a ring sport club. So of course the availability to train is going to lead to a higher chance that someone with an off-breed will train IPO and not a ring sport.

Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 06 January 2016 - 17:01

Bbwaahahahaar! LMFA.

Thumbs Up BW.

 

And just to add in another point, how come near-

ly all the dogs getting PD Stakes in UK Trialling

are Border Collies, these days ?  They may

not be GSDs anymore, but they certainly ain't

Maligators.  Wink Smile






 


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