SchH titled, American bred GSDs of the 70s, 80s, 90s – questions and a list - Page 1

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by Living Fence on 31 January 2016 - 15:01

I came across a number of American bred dogs whose entries state that they earned SchH titles when SchH was in its early days in the US.
These American lines have disappeared from SchH/IPO.

The pedigrees vary in how many and how far back German imports were, but all pedigrees show older American lines as well.

Questions:
Were these dogs titled at trials in the US, or sent to Germany for titling?
Are there members who participated in the early trials the US and in Canada and remember any of these dogs?
And their handlers?
Who were the breeders supporting SchH back then?
When and why did dogs of these lines disappear from SchH? The AKC ban on 'bite sports'?
How do users who were around at that time think the AKC's ban on 'bite sports' affected the development of American lines?
(Please, no bashing of lines – it's a historical question, it's about what factors were involved in change, not about bashing the results of the change)

The dogs I came across: (Please add any others that you know of)

Rohan's Alydar, SchH3, *1979
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=662111-rohans-alydar

CH DeAnnson's On Broadway, SchH1, *1980
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=473913-deannsons-on-broadway

Falko Nibelung, SchH3, *1980
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=1353428-falko-nibelung

Darby Dan's Audi, SchH1, *1981
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=487320-darbydans-audi

CH Merkel's Opium, SchH1, *1981
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=2453796-merkels-opium

Carolyn's Jedi Jock, SchH2, *1987
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=498560-carolyns-jedi-jock

Carolyn's MIdnight Music, SchH3, *1989
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=498559-carolyns-midnight-music
and her two offpsring:

Heidi Stoutenberg von Beauty, SchH3, *1990
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=498561-heidi-stoutenberg-von-beauty

Kimmelot's Grand Samson, SchH3, *1990
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=504712-kimmelots-grand-samson

Kimmelots Taska Kantu, SchH1, *1991
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=504701-kimmelots-taska-kantu

Hinterland's Thor Baer, SchH2, *1995
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=545726-kk2-hinterlands-thor-baer-sch2-ob3-cgc-tt

One of the pioneers of SchH and SV-style breeding in North America must have been the Canadian kennel Bullinger, beginning in the 1980s. Tracy Bullinger bred from imported dogs only, so her dogs are not in the above list of dogs with American lines behind them.


by bgstout on 31 January 2016 - 17:01

I would be interested also. At first glance I doubt some of these dogs actually earned the title and maybe someone just added a title to the database when adding the dog?

DenWolf

by DenWolf on 31 January 2016 - 19:01

Dr Graves and Trommel Shepherds..  homebred, AKC CH, and Sch titled...  not sure if they handled the dog, pretty sure it was done local to them.

Degen vd Trommel.

Might be more... I have old videos/pics they sent me decades ago.

I have one line decended from the full sibling Dirk.

 

There are more, you have to search books with pictures/pedigrees in them, also ask Fred Lanting, he knew of quite a few of them.

 

 


Sunsilver

by Sunsilver on 31 January 2016 - 19:01

VA2 Select Ch. Jim vom Fiemereck, Sch 3, ROM, KKl1 - owned by Dan Smith, Darby Dan Kennels. http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=19661-jim-vom-fiemereck

Dan sent Jim to Germany to be titled. The dog came back home in very thin, poor condition.


by Living Fence on 31 January 2016 - 20:01

Thank you, also for the pms! What I am after specifically are SchH titled dogs from American lines, so not the direct descendants of imported parents or dogs imported from Europe as puppies.

What were dogs of American lines still capable of at that time?

As I was told, several American bred dogs of the 60s like Yoncalla's Mike (a Bernd Kallengarten grandson) were temperamentally very sound, and the SchH titled American bred dogs usually have him back in the pedigree. Also American breeders like Mann (Liebestraum) and others are said to have selected for sound temperament - though not tested on the field.

Who were these dogs, and what became of their descendants? Were these breeding programs all discontinued? Or did SchH people switch to imported dogs entirely?

There were SchH pioneers like Susan Barwig, Tracy Bullinger and others who imported dogs, bred from them, and titled the offspring. Also several German immigrants like Johannes Grewe who imported and titled imports and their direct offspring.

Then there were K9 handlers, and the dogs they had.

Thanks for bringing up Trommel Kennel and the dog Degen v d Trommel, SchH1, *1982. Dr Graves crossed the imported DDR Sieger Bodo v Gräfental with a female from American lines free of Lance. He advertised his breedings as 'free of Lance' and specifilly wanted to go in another direction. Looks like a smart breeding program, with a focus on the versatile, sound dog, and genetic diversity. Were there others like him who crossed out? I know Bodo v Gräfental went to Fidelco soon afterwards, and Fidelco doesn't stud out.

 

 


DenWolf

by DenWolf on 31 January 2016 - 22:01

Trommel's Ivan of Berlindale... at the time, advertised by Graves as "the only am-bred GSD to ever get a s SchII"

Fred gave Ivan a 4 pt major

Graves wrote about Ivan "For the temperament other American CH don't produce, and the structure german imports can't produce"

At that time, pretty much ALL of the Am bred GSD were revoltingly inbred on lance-lance-lance the freak of nature, and you could NOT find anything free of him...

Graves spoke very highly of Yoncalla's Mike, and his breedings were absolutely lance-free, and he used Mike in his foundation.

Graves also was one of the very few at the time that hip certified EVERYTHING he had... 

 

 

At about the SAME time, in Germany, the black/red showline was already becoming its own "type" and interestingly, I do not believe there is any living german showline GSD today that does NOT have Uran Wildstiegerland in its pedigree, and multiple times.....  kind of like the way the lance thing went in USA.

I remember seeing pictures of it..  and noting how its saddle was only halfway down its side...   then noticing how it passed on this trait so prominently... among other things, it seems.

 

Has anyone else noticed how that recently (year or so recently) there have been many german showline pictures posted that RESEMBLE the rear angulations of am bred showlines???   I doubt it was planned.. seems to be something that has just defaulted.

 

I have video/pictures of Graves' dogs.. and a write up he gave me back in the 90's..  will have to find the video when I get home in March.

 

 

 


BlackthornGSD

by BlackthornGSD on 01 February 2016 - 01:02

My first GSD - AKC show-bred (sorta) born in 1992 --http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=1855498-blackthorns-bright-heart

 

You should look at Anne Kent's dogs, getting schutzhund titles in the US back in the early days of the sport in the US in California: http://www.adlerstein.com/accompli.htm  Also Rancho Rhein dogs, which Anne Kent's dogs seemed to have started from -- http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=1891323-ranchorheins-lila

And the Vollraths and the Pfalz's were also breeding schutzhund dogs in the United States in the 80s (or earlier).

Buck vd Pfalz went to the WM (world championships) and came in 2nd? I think, in the 80s.

 

 

 

Christine


BlackthornGSD

by BlackthornGSD on 01 February 2016 - 01:02


by Gustav on 01 February 2016 - 12:02

One of the great American SL dogs, that produced dogs very capable of doing Sch work ( of course with right female) was the Lance son Cobert's Reno. He produced some 58 Champions, and I saw and worked many of his progeny in LE work.

by Oskar on 01 February 2016 - 13:02

An actual top Producer in Germany "VA 3 Pacco vom Langenbungert" has on his motherside 3 Generation only American bred dogs by Kennel "vom Nadelhaus" of Traci Needles in Chico, CA.


V19 Ankaa vom Nadelhaus SCHH1 female
2007
SV 2236008
HD-SV: HD a-normal (a1)
Dam



V Diego vom Nadelhaus SCHH3 male
2003
SZ 2162086
HD-SV: HD a-noch zugelassen (a3)
Sire



VA5(N) NUCH Pacco vom Nadelhaus SCHH3 male
2000
SZ 2120075
HD-SV: HD a-normal (a1)
Sire



V Bella vom Nadelhaus SCHH2 female
2001
AKC DL90237803
HD-SV: HD a-fast normal (a2)
Dam



V Abby vom Nadelhaus SCHH1 female
2003
SZ 2166814
HD-SV: HD a-normal (a1)
Dam



V Astro vom Nadelhaus SCHH1 male
2001
SZ 2121608
HD-SV: HD a-normal (a1)
Sire



SG Natali vom Nadelhaus SCHH2 female
2000
AKC DL86292903 (SZ8013814)
HD-SV: HD a-fast normal (a2)
Dam







 


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