Elbow open - Page 1

It has been quite a long time now that I have been thinking about the elbow open of a GSD in trot, I just can't stop thinking about it.
I remember in college days when professor used to give us a problem to solve, I couldn't sleep before I solved it, would remain restless till I succeeded and put it behind my back.
When I see a riddle on facebook I try to convince myself not to read it and just forget about it, if I don't get convinced then I wouldn't rest till I solved it. This is me.

This elbow open issue is not letting me rest.
A better angled shoulder is supposed to make better elbow open and better front reach than a lesser angled one. But in reality what happens is quite the opposite. I watched closely, worklines, German lines and American lines trot.
In general German showline VAs have better angled shoulders than their American counterparts. the latter are easily recognized as steep even by the average enthusiast's eye, But ASL opens its elbow much, much better, so why the hell is that?
WGWL, a dog like Joanro's, who has a moderate shoulder makes a very good front reach coupled with one of best elbow open you can see on a GSD in trot.
Same goes for Xeph's dog, which is ASL, but hers makes them both superbly, the elbow open as well as the front reach, when it is obvious hers has a relatively steep front upper arm compared to as good a WGSL one.

Why did Dingo have better elbow open and better front reach when he was steep in the front upper arm?, Why can't the current German VAs with superior shoulders do the same.

I also see very well angled shoulders show front legs not close to ground, during front reach as should.
Well I now do have a theory that I think solves the problem on hand, but time here is too late and I have to go to sleep, tomorrow I will present my theory and take your opinions.

Ibrahim, consider how the WGSL front might change if their toplines were not curved (which is incorrect). The shoulder angles may be technically correct, but that convex spine makes it impossible to use the angulation correctly.

Gege good point Xeph.. I totally agree

Ok, let me build up my case 1st, especially for those of you who have no idea that I, in several previous posts, wondered why some well conformed dogs do not show good elbow open in trot in the stage the front leg is making front/forward reach. Any experienced judge or enthusiast, by looking at a GSD's chest, can spot a well angled front upper arm from a slightly steep or steep one. How is that? Well answer is by simply looking how well developed is the fore chest. The more developed the fore chest is the better angled the fore arm is, and this is very true as per our present knowledge of the shoulder angulation. Here it is in pictures for better understanding.

1. Vegas Du Haut Mansard, VA WGSL

2. And this is Joanro's female. a WGWL

3. Xeph's dog, ASL, I think will participate in show championship in coming days, I expect him to place well, his trot is incredible (on basis of modern GSD)

Look at above pictures, Vegas has super fore chest development, then Joanro's dog then last Xeph's. So as per what we know, Vegas should show best close to ground trot, best front reach and best elbow open, then slould come Joanro's and lastly Xeph's. But is this in fact the case when you see those three dogs trot? Is it

Ibrahim, real quick cause I have work to do; don't forget that the rear powers the fore...ie, the front only 'catches' the push from the rear..so if the rear is not putting out much power, there is not so much for the front to 'catch' and so only needs minimal effort to keep the body aloft. And the opposite is true; more power from the rear = more for the fore to catch.

Yes that could be true Xeph & Joanro but what I will do later on, I will limit my discussion on elbow open and possible cause from shoulder build only, as there could be other causes too from other body parts build. let me complete my case building and finish that in this very post. So again, is it the case when dogs are seen in trot? let us see.

1. Xeph's dog

Xeph : is this the same dog in the stance picture? 

2. Joanro's

3. Vegas

 

 

As you can see
Front reach
The three are nearly the same, I will not say Xeph's is much better and Joanro's is equal, I will say all are almost the same

Close to gtround
Xeph's and Joanro's are much closer to ground

Elbow open
Xeph's
Joanro's (both are close)
Then way back comes Vegas



Let us limit the discussion now to elbow open.Why is Xeph's and Joanro's dogs enjoy much better elbow open, though their shoulders are steeper?

Ibrahim, it's impossible to isolate one body part and to not take in the whole dog. Looking at your pics, those dogs are laying into and relying on the leash for balance and are being restricted in forward movement. Also, the rears are so deformed in those examples, that it would stand to reason the fore limbs must compensate. Believe it, if you address the top line and hindquarters when selecting dogs for breeding, the movement will be balanced....it is not possible to get the unrestricted forequarters from dogs with such deformed bodies.

 

Ok, then we will do this. Let me first present what I think possibly causes this no-elbow-open from inside the shoulder itself, then we will inspect other possible causes. Tell you what, I may be totally wrong and make a fool of myself, but then it is better in front of you than in front of total strangers 

 

Bear with me please

Let us look at the construction of shoulder, it will take me sometime doing that as I have to search and work on some pictures, but I will not stop or leave till I finish presenting what I think