German Shepherd Bloodlines - Page 1

Pedigree Database

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by Mkbjab on 17 February 2016 - 18:02

How can I find out what bloodline my dog is? I believe he is from German lines but would just be curious as to which ones?

susie

by susie on 17 February 2016 - 18:02

What about a pedigree ( or at least names of sire and dam ).
People on this board might be able to help, but they need some data.

TIG

by TIG on 19 February 2016 - 02:02

Hi Mk Welcome to the PDB and if you are a new GSD owner welcome to a wonderful talented smart breed. Most GSDs will keep you on your toes as a dog owner.

As to your question - the best place to start is always with the breeder of your dog. A good breeder will know the answer to the question and should be able to tell you the why behind the breeding. Why certain lines or certain dogs were chosen and what the goal(s) of the breeder is. For example if the breeder likes to compete in conformation it's highly likely the dogs will be show lines chosen primarily for their physical appearance. If the breeder likes working his dog or competing in sports such as schutzhund, herding , obedience, tracking or breeding dogs for real work such as police or search and rescue dogs it is likely that person has chosen dogs based on their working abilities and traits and again should be able to tell you the why and wherefore behind the breeding.

If that resource is not available to you, the next tool is your pedigree which can contain many clues re the origin and purpose of the dogs behind your pup. One of the easiest to help determine nationality of the dogs involved is the registration information for the dog but this can also be very deceptive because dogs are imported across national lines and reregistered in their new country all the time. I will use two of my dogs as examples for you. First is Remy who was my service dog and my sport dog. This links you to her pedigree http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=485683-remy Remy was an import from Holland when she was 10 weeks old. She has a NHSB registry # but to compete in this country she had to be reregistered with the AKC the FCI recognized registry so her record shows a DN #. On the pedigrees it may sometimes indicate AKC but often just shows DN or DL or similiar registration # which are used by AKC. Next you will notice two other registration designations in her pedigree - NHSB and SV the Dutch and German registries respecitvely. However that is not the whole story. Her dam side consists of hard core working Dutch dogs (mostly KNVP wh/ is Dutch police dog training. Her sire is also NHSB registered and a highly accomplished KNPV dog BUT he comes from West German (SV) dogs and in this instance from WG Show lines (WGSL). This was an outcross breeding with only minimal linebreeding in the 7th generation.

Now if you look at her daughter's pedigree http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=2127142-kaiserfitz-seffe-von-sontausen you will see that tho Seffe is slightly more linebred than her dam, in many ways she has a far more open pedigree than her dam. In fact she has two different WGSL and two different WG Working lines (WGWL) - all SV registered, Dutch lines ( NHSB),  Czech (CMKU, CKSP), East German (DDR) and Sksp wh/ I do not remember is Slovak or Polish. About all she's missing from the bifurcation of GSD lines is Belgian(LOSH) and American. Tho the openness of these two pedigrees is a bit unusual today there were good sound reasons for both breedings tho that is not germane to the current discussion.

So if SV indicates a German registered dog (usually german bred) how do I know a working from a show line and one show line from another. What I call time in grade. I've owned showed and trialed GSDs for decades and have been a student of the breed all that time. I study pedigrees, read breed specific magazines and books and historical material. I go to all kind of dog events - herding, schutzhund, obedience, agility trials; conformation shows both specialty(only GSDs) and all breed. I talk to folks and ask about dogs I like asking about pedigrees and traits and training. I have trained my own dogs. However it started with one dog and pedigree that I had to learn to read and interpret. It's not really difficult. In fact I find it fascinating and I love to look at the "brews"  successful breeders use. You will start to recognize dogs names since most pedigrees today in their own little piece of the GSD world (show, working, WG, Czech etc) have great commonality. By listening and asking you will start to learn which is which - show /working etc.

 


TIG

by TIG on 20 February 2016 - 13:02

If you would like me to go thru Seffe's pedigree and point out the various work and show lines and some of the important dogs behind them to get you started, I'd be happy too.

Better yet as Susie suggested post your dog's pedigree. I noticed you entered several dogs in the db at the time you posted this query. Is Jase the dog you are curious about?

If so while he has some German dogs back in his pedigree, he really has a wide open pedigree crossing American Showlines with a variety of European lines and some homebred backyard dogs. That combined with the lack of work and/or show titles or health clearances in the upfront generations suggest at best a confusion of purpose and goals on the part of the breeder(s).


GSDTYSON

by GSDTYSON on 28 February 2016 - 19:02

Hi guys,
How is it possible for a show line GSD to have a mixed progeny in every litter, some show line and some working line (sable). Could it be a recessive gene? or somewhere along the dogs line someone has bred with a working line GSD and hid that breeding. I can see in the dog's pedigree some sables, but not sure if i can consider this dog a mix between working and show lines.

Thx


TIG

by TIG on 28 February 2016 - 23:02

Please post a link to the dog you are talking about so we can better address the questions you are asking.

However sable is a dominant gene in the GSD. If the parent is homogeneous sable ( meaning both copies she or he got from his parents were for the sable coloring) all his(her) progeny will be sable because they will carry at least one copy of the sable gene. However let's say this homogeneous sable was bred to a black and tan dog. The pups phenotypically (what we see) will appear to be sable but will also carry the genes for black and tan. If they are bred to a dog carrying (genotype - what the genes have but may or may not show phenotypically) or expressing black and tan they can produce either sable or black or tan depending which gene they throw for which pup because parents only contribute 1 color gene each though they carry two color genes.

Complicating color genetics in GSD - blacks are a pure recessive (and no I will not get into a discussion about the supposed dominant black producers - hello fence jumpers) and then we have patterns as well as colors and a sable can express sable and a saddle pattern and we have masking genes (white) and off colors and dilutes - blue, liver etc and a dog can carry for several of these. And then we have the bi-colors which if you drop into the search engine on this forum you will see that a. there is not a common definition of what a bi-color is- it has changed over time and b. we are not sure if it is a color or a pattern or both and c. we are not really sure about the inheritance pattern for it and where its locus is.

We also have in some lines a fading factor where the dog loses color or pattern over time as they age. Some of these black tan w/ a fading factor when adult can be hard to distinguish from a very light sable ( sables can have a range of color and pigment) and unless you know what they looked like as a pup (sables are very distinctive as pups) it can be difficult to tell what their genetics are.

There are show lines that have sable mostly from the Arlett dogs ( also see Timo Berrekastan) but again a sable MUST have at least one sable parent - it is the top line dominant in GSDs colors. So the fact the dog is sable does NOT automatically make it a working dog. You may also looking a cross breeding between Wl and SL. So link up some pedigrees so we can see what you are curious about.


GSDTYSON

by GSDTYSON on 01 March 2016 - 08:03

Ok, TIG but I will send the pedigree in private, one of the names you provided is responsible for the breeding of this dog.
Thank you

BlackthornGSD

by BlackthornGSD on 01 March 2016 - 17:03

Color doesn't make a dog one bloodline type or the other, even if that's how it is. A sable dog is not automatically a workingline dog, and a black/red dog isn't automatically show line.

TIG

by TIG on 03 March 2016 - 21:03

Tyson, Thank you for your pm. I would urge you to link the pedigree to this thread as I think it can be a learning tool for others.

As noted above - color does not determine working line or show line - pedigree does. The dog you are curious about is a hi-line dog (show lines) from very respected and well known dogs. He appears to be a heterogeneous sable w/ the saddle pattern bleeding thru. . Tho he is linebred on a sable bitch in this case it is only thru the motherline that the sable gene was transmitted (his dam is sable). The sable gene in his pedigree comes from a Canto v Wienerau daughter born in 1972 before the bifurcation of the breed into show and working lines. (Canto and Quanto while considered the fountainheads of modern show lines lived and bred when there were only GSDs not fragmented segments of a breed)

Actually the sable gene in this pedigree has an interesting history. It appears to go back to Lido http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=5995-lido-vom-johanneshauch a very dark sable born in 1952 and SV registered who was exported to the US. If you look at his  progeny tree http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=5995-lido-vom-johanneshauch&p=childtree  you will see that many of his progeny down thru the generations are American GSDs. In fact I believe thru Brix and the K litter Waldesruh he is probably responsible for the vast majority of sables still seen in American show lines to this day. Interestingly it seems that one of his American bred granddaughters Wilva Don Belva was exported back to Switzerland and it was her daughter that produced the sable Canto daughter born in 1972 http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=109-elke-von-der-rosenmatt ( interesting to note also the difference in sable coloring from Lido to Elke) that is one of the sources that leads to sables in current German hi-lines.


TIG

by TIG on 04 March 2016 - 03:03

What is also interesting about this pedigree is a that it is an example of how easily a dominant gene can be completely lost from a genome. The dog Tyson emailed me is actually linebred on three sable dogs BUT the linebreeding counts for nothing if there is not a sable parent to contribute the sable gene. Here it was his dam. His sire is black and red though the sire is also from a sable bitch.  This sable bitch  (paternal granddam to dog being discussed) was also linebred on a sable bitch 4,5-3 but was obviously heterogeneous since bred to a black and red she produced both colors. While she produced a number of sables in her progeny, her grandchildren are primarily black and red - because that is what people choose for. So the combination of some sneaky recessives combined with human selection can wipe out a dominant trait in just a couple of generations. 

For those new to the board here is a link to an article whose author will tell why in this case that would be a tragedy and what she feels the sable gene offers in terms of affecting pigmentation - even in non sables http://www.arlett.de/sables/

Tyson also asked about the frequency of sables that would be produced by this heterogeneous sable male when bred to black and tans. A pundit square predicts a 50% production BUT one must always keep in mind statistics only work out in the long run. So for example a dog such as the one above could have one whole litter end up black and tan and another whole litter end up sable and that will equal the 50% production. The more normal happening is to have mixed litters but again it is only in the long term that the numbers average so it may look like and in fact may be that he is producing more of one color than the other in the present.






 


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