Crufts 2016 - Page 4

And it still isn't.

"An error has occurred ..."


How come this keeps happening now, every other vid anyone
posts seems to be unworkable since Oli's last Site Revamp -
what has he done to it ? Didn't used to be this problem ...

I have seen the video at home but was at Crufts watching the Group judging.My thoughts were that the bitch just didnt want to show, wasnt happy with the judge , the handler was not sympathetic and when he got her moving she was crabbing. The movement that is being aired by hanging juries was not obvious. I cant argue with the slow motion film though.
The bitch has excellent credentials-breed survey hips sv judges so there is going to be a lot of head scratching.I did wonder if it was an injury but how would someone not have noticed? I see she posted her clear vet examination from the Crufts vets.
I hope something positive emerges once the dust settles. Poor owner who obviously adores her dog.
For many years you would not have gone to Crufts to see a lot of good shepherds as mostly they dont enter. I did however have the joy of seeing Zamp when he graced our shores.......

Quite frankly the Judge, who has been in the breed for many years, should have seen the fault in the dogs backline before even getting to the movement. The dog has a serious hinge in her backline which is not desirable in the GSD or any other working breed. Unfortunately for the breed this fault has been ignored and promoted by certain people as being correct which is misleading for the Newbies. The reason we see this so often is that Breeders do not know how to breed away from it. There are other faults in the GSD which are not getting the right sort of recognition to move to eradicate it. The Breeders attitude appears to be "well we cannot breed away from it and so we will now call it normal". What a disgrace!!

I really feel for the owners who clearly love their dogs and must feel very hurt. However, it is the breed as a whole that must come first. I do not know how long the owners have been in the Breed but the faults displayed by their dog has been around now for many years.

Mackenzie

A fairly new breeder-I looked at her web site. She must be devastated.
As I say this will be interesting once the breeders and judges really look at this. If this is shown to be breeding fault and not an injury this is a road gone down with assessment and judging. They said the dog was good.

on web site and a lot of well known names
Show results 2015.
1st Limit Bitch, BITCH CC & BEST OF BREED - Judge Mr Armstrong - Working & Pastoral breeds handled by Craig Rice
1st Open Bitch, BEST BITCH & BEST OF BREED - Judge Samantha Hall - North Eastern open October, handled by Shona & Erin
1st PG Bitch & BITCH RCC - Judge Helen Bibby - Clyde Valley Champ show handled by Craig Rice
V2 VICE ADULT SIEGERIN 2015 - Judge Herr Torsten Kopp - British Sieger handled by Carsten Honig (2)
V2 - Judge Rudigar Mai - South Western GSD Regional handled by Kim Harrison (2)
1st Limit Bitch - Judge Karl Ojala - Bolton Champ Show handled by Hazel Docherty
2nd Limit Bitch - Judge Luciano Musolini - South of Scotland Champ show April handled by Jo Cathie
1st Adult Bitch - Judge Margrit van Dorsen - SPGSD Regional April handled by Jo Cathie (4)
V1 - Judge Frank Goldlust - West Yorks Regional May handled by Jo Cathie (4)
1st Open Bitch, BEST BITCH & BEST OF BREED - Judge Lynne McCowliff - Clyde Valley open May, handled by Jo Cathie
1st Limit Bitch - Judge Mike Vines - SKC Champ Show May handled by Jo Cathie
1st PG Bitch & BITCH RCC - Judge Joachim Steigler - Irish 2 day national handled by Craig Rice
Show Results 2014.
1st Special Yearling - Judge Joan Docherty (Hazroh) - GSD Club of Scotland handled by Fiona Anderson
SG1- Judge Bernd Weber (vom Augrund) - South West Regional handled by Andrew Connelly (2)
1st Special Yearling - Judge - South of Scotland Open Show handled by Hazel Docherty
1st special Yearling - Judge Toby Green ( Greenveldt) - Fife Open Show handled by Dale Mathieson
SG1- Judge Joachim Stiegler (Stieglerhof) - West Yorks Regional Show handled by Craig Rice (2)
2nd Post Grad Bitch - Judge Neil Dodds - North Eastern CH Show handled by Andrew Connelly
1st Special Yearling - Judge Hugh Rooney - Clyde Valley Open Show handled by Dale Mathieson
1st Post Graduate Bitch - Judge Hugh DeZutter (Langfaulds) - Border Union Ch Show handled by Andrew Connelly/Dale Mathieson
SG1 - Judge Hans Peter Schweimer - GSDL Regional Show handled by Craig Rice (2)
SG2 - Judge Harald Hohmann - SPGSD Regional Show handled by Dale Mathieson (1)
1st Post Graduate Bitch - judge Malcolm Robinson - South Western CH show handled by Andrew Connelly & Neil Dodds
2nd Post graduate Bitch - Judge Rolf Evensen - GSD Club of Scotland handled by Dale Mathieson

I firmly believe "hinged back" is a result of judges faulting normal croups for being 'too straight -too short'...the only way for 'breeders' to get the approval from the 'judges' for the coveted long sloping croup is to select dogs with a back which drops from the center...giving the illusion of good whithers and sloping croup. Changing the angle and length of pelvis ( which is attached to the spine) can only be achieved by selecting for squatting rear and the spine dropping from middle. Breeding selection to change a SPECIFIC bone in the skeleton is wrong and detrimental as evidenced by the state of the b/r gsd.
It only stands to reason that selecting for a certain sized and angled pelvis is destructive to the breed (all species, as the selection for pelvis angle was a bust in the Arabian horse, too) Therefore, the more judges put up the dogs with the optical illusion of a 'correctly' sloping croup with the desired 'length', the more the back is going to be obviously hinged. Jmo.

There was a time when German Judges started come to the UK and they awarded the CC to a dog it followed that the English Judges at the time, who were so much in awe of the German Judges, they would just follow the German and award the CC to the same animal. Many dogs at the time were made up in three shows after the getting the first CC from a German Judge.

As far as the hinge is concerned this would have been seen at an early age. It is not something that just appears overnight and so It would have been present whoever judged her in the past. It has been either forgiven, or, just passed over and accepted. It does not make it RIGHT.  This fault was first seen in the Sieger Jeck v Noricom and his offspring around 1991 if my memory serves me right.  Hermann Martin passed it and in the eyes of some people they thought that it must be right. 

Mackenzie

There are photos in existence of this BOB where she
does not look 'hinged'. This is part of the problem -
the topline as it now exists in an increasing proportion
of the breed is not so very far worse along the spectrum
than has been acceptable to most of us 'in' the Breed
- at least the European, conformation-oriented side of it -
for years now.

It is NOT liked by the majority of the public, ("Who cares ?" -
but they are customers for the puppies !);
it is not liked by the 'working' & sports people, and it is
certainly not liked by the Show exhibitors of 'coffee-table'
backed GSDs, whether Alsatians or American lines.

We might argue that this picture has been thoroughly stirred by
various journalists, and others with vested interests - I for one
would not disagree with that. BUT from a position where 'the curve'
looked ok, even attractive, to me, 15 or so years ago, and could
safely be defended against all-comers, because it was not linked to
health problems, because it did not interfere with the dogs'
mobility, because it was a natural extension and development
of Von Stephanitz's original 'recipe', and because it was only rarely
seen IN COMBINATION with other factors - like the 'hinge'; like the
very long, weak hocks persisting into adulthood - I was one of
those who published articles pointing out that it was fine, it was
made more noticeable than 'real' by the clumsy way a lot of people
'Stood' their dogs; it did not endanger the breed, people saw "what
they wanted to see" and were letting aesthetics get in the way of
seeing properly.

For the majority of GSDs today, I STILL hold these things to be true.
However, the breeding, exhibiting and judging community appear to
have taken that way of thinking and gradually allowed themselves -
and therefore all the rest of us - to have slipped into a situation where
excesses have occurred / been ignored / bred in, and we are now
asked to defend the indefensible. The brakes SHOULD have been
applied years ago.

In my opinion, D Hall is too wise and experienced a breeder not to
have realised what he was doing in putting this bitch up. He could
have ensured it went to the dog; he could have excused her if it
was apparent she was coming into season; he could have advised
any time after judging that she not be taken into the Group. Did he ?

Yes she probably was in season, yes that may have made her 'wimp
out' in the presence of the Group Judge, (though it still should not have,
her being a GSD with good basic temperament, as agreed by all those
who put her up in Classes prior to Crufts), but her topline and movement
could not have gone to pieces, as they undoubtedly did, just because
she backed off. Whether dogs where 'the recipe' has been cooked THIS
FAR are actually sound and healthy or not (and in view of the Veterinary
examinations at Shows, we should accept that they ARE, IMO) the Breed
as a whole needs to stop turning a Nelsonian Eye on this developmental
issue, and start doing something about it.

I too feel sorry for the newbie-ish owners of the BOB, they did not deserve
this, I don't suppose they were expecting it. I hope some of what I have
said makes sense to them. Remember above all, "We always take the BEST
dog home, whatever happens at any Show".

Probably some judge became fixated on the angle of the croup while trying to find something with which to make a placement choice....and the fixation became a fad, which then became an issue for breeders, consequently creating the deformity that is now prevalent in the b/r gsd.

Of course the 'hinge' is obvious as a puppy...but 'just LOOK at that CROUP ! ' and nobody cares about the hinge. The hinge has become an intrinsic part of the landscape, just like the green mountains of land fill garbage are part of the landscape in Florida.

To follow on from my comment regarding Jeck v Noricum you will find if you go back a few generations that this female carries several lines to Jeck.

Mackenzie