Judging, Judges and the GSD - Page 2

The furore over the Crufts Best of Breed winner seems to almost be over, however, the topic Judging, Judges and the GSD remains. There does not seem to be much appetite to even discuss or even contribute to what is the crux of the matter regarding the Crufts BOB and the state of the breed today. After all the dog did not ask to become BOB the result was, put simply, another case of extremely poor assessment and judgement by the Judge.

I would like to make it clear that I am not being snarky about the fact that there seems to be no interest in my post. It just amazes me that after all the comments directed towards the dog very little is said to address the important issue of this post. Is it just another case of people cannot be bothered, it doesn’t apply to them, that they are satisfied with the status quo, or, the awarding of honours from top to bottom from mainly, unqualified Judges and poor knowledge of what is required to Judge is of more importance. Whichever one it is I find it very sad for the breed as a whole.

Mackenzie

Been done to death here.

I think the main difficulty - in the UK at least - is that the people
who should be seriously thinking about what to do about all the
aspects of this issue do not, or no longer, frequent the PDB.

Hello vk nice to see you back. I disagree with your comment because although the topic has been discussed in the past does not mean that it is not worthy of bringing it up again. Not so long ago I made a post and many people said exactly the same thing that you are saying now. The post went on to get nearly 750,000 viewings which, I think, says something - don't you.

Hundemutter makes a good point in that not so many people no longer come to the PDB. I do not like to criticise the PDB but, in my opinion, that was because the trolls and trouble makers were not dealt with either quickly enough or strongly enough.

Mackenzie

Mack, I think there is no resonance, because the active members already discussed this problem more than once over the years. We could copy/paste our old, but still actual statements.

In my personal opinion the problem is very complex, not related to judges only.
As long as breeders/owners worldwide don´t start to ask for working ability and health ( including healthy conformation ) nothing will change - but the majority won´t ask for it.

At least in Germany our breeding rules are the hardest of any breed, but rules are only as good as the people interpreting them ( breeders, owners, handlers, show judges, trial judges ...).

Right now I don´t even talk about cheating intentionally, but about "interpretations"...

Think about the IPO trial 70/70/80 "pronounced" -
in case judges would use the same standard for "pronounced" as, for example, I do, less dogs would be "breedworthy" in a heartbeat ( and a lot of "overdone" dogs would be out of the game, too, because as soon as I start to interprete "working ability" in case of speed, endurance, agility, temperament... several more wouldn´t pass any more ). SELECTION

In a perfect world a honest breeder wouldn´t use mediocre dogs - in real life the breeder is glad the dog got the title, and he uses the dog for breeding.
In a perfect world a prospective buyer wouldn´t buy puppies out of mediocre dogs, but in reality he doesn´t care. SELECTION

This is reality for Germany - now think about all the other countries, where are no or far less breeding requirements, where everybody decides for himself about quality and breed worthiness...

I am deeply shocked whenever I take a look into the ad section of this site - for a couple of years now the ads for unproven, untested "European bred" Walmart puppies and adults increase day after day - and the "oversea" breeders buy - the majority doesn´t care about working dog temperament, structure, health - they only care about the price and the color ( black and red for a showline, black sable for a workingline ). ( Sorry about the rant, but that´s the truth )

What do I want to say?

You are right, judges need to judge according to the standard, but to the same time the breeders are responsible for the development of their own stock ( as a conclusion they are responsible for the development of the whole breed ).

As long as breeders are willing to "produce" for the market, and not for the breed,
and buyers will buy colors and not working dogs,
no rules will change the status quo.

Hi Susie, another very good post.

Although the topic has been well aired in the past I think that there is always a need to reintroduce some topics because of the newbies coming in. It may help them set out on the right road from the beginning.

Of course breeders must play their part in the future of the breed and the type of dogs they are producing. My thought here is that once the Judges start to put up the right type and, only the right sort of dog, will the breeders start to think about making changes. If we keep going as we are then there is no incentive for breeders to make the changes that are necessary. This is why I think the Judges are to key to change. I also believe, quite strongly, that dogs who are other than black and red should be invited back into the show dogs. The change in colour which was made under Hermann Martin was just his desire and not agreeable to everyone who is involved in the breed. Alfred Hahn (Busecker Schloss) comes to mind here when he was on the breeding committee and he was just brushed aside and off of the committee. The matter was not discussed or voted upon.

Mackenzie

Well nobody has been actively keeping the grey dogs out, in
Europe, else we wouldn't have the Von Arlett kennel and one
or two lesser breeders. Nobody is actually saying "Don't" -
use sables in your breeding programme
enter sables in Shows
saying, passe Dorothy Beech, "I'm not putting up sables when I
judge";

it is exactly like the structural problem IMO, the 'sheeple' just do
[or fail to do] what every other exhibitor or breeder is doing,
without considering implications or consequences. Sometimes
that can be usefully harnessed, eg with most now hip scoring;
but it often works to the detriment of the breed.

Thank you, Hundmutter.

I am only able to speak for my country, but "sables" were never forbidden, breeders simply didn´t use them.
Almost no studs left out of Timo ( 4 times VA ), you are able to find him almost exclusively in some female offspring.
Sable showlines don´t sell - never did...

The most prestigious German Shepherd dog event is the German Siegershow - I will never understand why owners of good working dogs ( black and red, sable, black, bi color ) don´t participate much more. This show is the perfect international platform for them to show their dogs during bitework, and to make people aware of the difference in quality. The top ten dogs are awarded, that´s an awsome chance for these dogs and the breed as a whole.

But as long as breeders and owners don´t stop to think that only the "last ring" is worth to participate, and only studs out of the last ring are breedworthy, nothing will change.

So, you want the status and financial prospects attached to owning and or breeding a UK show champion, unless you are party to the judging clique good luck in your long quest, evidently it's not just about the dog. You could import a dog from the fatherland, but a northern buy to let may be cheaper and the related survey less likely to be a work of fiction.

Hundemutter you are wrong about nobody actively keeping out grey dogs. Hermann Martin actively kept them out. The only grey dogs that I remember being promoted by the President was in 1987 when he made Orno v Murrtal VA4 only to have it taken away later for some reason that I cannot immediately remember and, in 1988 he made Joker v Arlett, an Uran son, V17. Also, at that time Arlett was very close to Walther Martin. Sables are still a legitimate colour in the breed standard as are Bi Colours and Blacks but in following Hermann Martin’s lead these colours were pushed aside.

When you quote Dorothy Beach you are referring to someone who was not on the German side of the breed.

You are also right regarding the “sheepie” syndrome which is why the breed is in such a mess. The endorses my point that the Judges must lead the way in moving forward in the right way. The Breeders would then follow.

I also agree with Susie regarding the comment “ owners of good working dogs ( black and red, sable, black, bi color ) don´t participate much more” in the Sieger Show. There is at this time some very good anatomically good dogs on the working side who could be used to Show Lines and, this in turn, would open up the gene pool.

Mackenzie