Judging, Judges and the GSD - Page 3

Mack, that was 1987. It is now 2016. Nobody NOW is saying
"Don't Show sables"; nobody has been saying it for YEARS.
When Mrs Beech last said that, it was about 1990. How many
years has she been dead and gone ? We have had sables in
the UK Showring; perhaps more on the 'germanic' side; Nikki
Farley was exhibiting one or two nice bitches in the '90s, there
have been others since then. The fact that many more people
haven't run with that ball is about choice, not compulsion.

Me, I have always thought it a poor choice ... but what ya
gonna do about it ? Say every Kennel has to have at least
one sable, to get the numbers up ? Give me a break !

Of course there is a problem with people not exhibiting 'better'
dogs rather than more 'fashionable' ones, if all they want to
do is win rosettes and tickets. But the judges have almost
always been leading breeders - why are they making decisions
they don't HAVE to make ? They don't suddenly become totally
different people, do they ? And what are they going through
Judging Exams for ?

Hundemutter my comment regarding sables was a response to your comment about them. People followed Hermann Martin and the next Grey dog to reach the top was the VA male Timo v Berrekasten in 1999 and after him Champ v Dakota (V2) in 2003. Both of these dogs came to the top after the President had passed away. During this time there were many breeders in Germany with grey dogs but they knew that they would not get top honours regardless of how good the dogs were because of the colour. What was happening in Germany was followed by the German Side of the Breed in the UK. Dorothy Beech’s comment was just her opinion as an Alsatianist and, she told me in a conversation that I had with her, that there is no way that she would become involved in the German way. That conversation took place in 1972 the year that Marko was made Sieger. What I am saying is historical fact.

As far as the second paragraph is concerned I have never suggested that every kennel has a sable to get the numbers up. You asked for me to give you a break. May I suggest that you take it now.

Not all Judges are leading breeders and I was not one at the time I judged the breed including one breed show. The decisions that all Judges should and have to make are those that do not send the breed in the wrong direction and that is sometimes different to the animals that they are breeding. These people do not suddenly become different people because they just keep doing what they have always done and that is not necessarily the right choice. I would have thought that after all your years in the breed you would have figured out why Judges should qualify by examination. Why do you think that it is a requirement of the SV?

Mackenzie

It may be 'fact' but what I am saying is that this fact is
desperately irrelevant in the Ring TODAY; at the point
where Mrs B was still saying that (and I quoted her ONLY
because she was the one 'specialist' judge who ever
openly admitted they would not place sables, as far as I
can remember), I very much doubt(ed) she was saying it
out of any loyalty to Herr Martin ! Backed by your own
recall !

On conformation & temperament, rather than colour, I'm trying
to get people thinking about real solutions, for the situation NOW;
all you seem to be able to do is say "what are the judges doing ?"
The answer to that seems to be Sweet FA. But why is that ? It isn't
just toeing any SV 'line'.

Yes they ought to do the Exam (most of the 'bigger' breeders have,
by now). In some cases they have children & grandchildren that
have, too! I have always understood that the (BC) Judging Course
contains references to "doing no harm"/"keeping the breed a working
breed", yada-yada-yada. So what is going awry ? If you read the
League's response to Crufts, you'd think we were all blind who saw
anything wrong. Maybe in the Class and the Challenge, the Breed
Judge didn't see anything wrong. (Was that a pig that just flew over-
head ?) - but our GSD BOB should not totally fall apart once in the
big Group Ring, should it ?

There is an interesting article on the Videx GSD website titled "Judge And Ye Shall Be Judged" by Sierra Milton. The article can be found on the Videx under the button labeled "Articles-General". It is an interesting read.

Mackenzie

Yes I agree that article is worth everybody reading it, but
Videx have had it up for a good long time.
We need something that's a more radical way to get all
breeders and judges seriously thinking about these issues,
rather than just "carrying on regardless" - but darned if I can
think what will put a bomb under them !

It is very simple Hundemutter when you know who they are as you should. You just do not give them an entry.

Mackenzie

I can hear a cuckoo up in that cloud already.

Hundemutter I am not sure what you mean with your last post.

When I was active in the breed I would not make an entry to Judges who did not put up the correct type of dogs, anyone that put up weak characters, unsound dogs and hinge back lines are, for me, unacceptable. I also did not support Clubs who continually appointed those sort of Judges.

Do you make that sort of statement?

Mackenzie

Seriously, you think withholding entries from certain judges
who you see as perpetuating problems is enough ? Each
exhibitor individually making up their own minds to do so,
weighing up if they can 'afford' not to enter particular Shows
because this year the Judge is Mr/ms X ? No more organisation
and incentive than that ?

Ask yourself why that hasn't worked before - on ANY issue in the
Show history of this breed, - let alone the years we've had to see
where these particular trends were headed.

And what protest do people like myself make, who don't have
dogs to show ? No good me or anyone in similar circumstances
saying that we wouldn't enter under X if we were actively exhibiting;
like they'd care. Like it would make a ha'porth of difference to the
direction the GSD is headed in ?

No Mack, get real, we need something a hell of a lot louder and
more organised than that to get behind, at this stage of the game.
Believe me, if I can think of some way to do it, that will carry enough
people with me to make a worthwhile difference, I'll try my best to
initiate it.

When I first came into the breed in1970 I used to go to a show most weekends. Did not win a thing. After about three months I started to get placed 3rd or 4th. At that time I did not mind as I thought of it as progress. I started to look very closely at other dogs and why they were winning. I noticed more and more that people fell into cliques and prizes were awarded very often to people who were in one group or another. I quickly realised that unless I was in one of the groups I was going nowhere. The whole thing culminated and confirmed my opinions when I entered a League Championship Show. I finished in third place. The Judge, who was a Committee Member, came to me after the Judging and said to me “ I liked your dog best in your class but you have to do your apprenticeship first”. I was shocked at the time because it wasn’t about my dog but it was about me.

After this experience I sat down and set out the rules that I would play by and these were as follows.

I would not show my dogs under judges who made their place depending on who owned the dog.
I would not support Shows who appointed Judges from that ilk.
I would not tolerate dogs with a weak character and Judges who put them up
I would not accept poorly constructed dogs
I would not accept dogs that were unsound
I would not accept dogs that had poor movement
I would not use any dog in a mating that had epilepsy behind them (epilepsy was rife when I first came into the breed)
I also decided that for my dogs I would always keep to the fore that this is a working breed and always try to keep the traits that make a working dog.
I would not become attached to one group or another

I set the bar high because without these things the breed would become nothing. If other people deviate from these principles and accept what we are seeing today then they are just kidding themselves. I remember once someone who is considered to be a top breeder said “If the hips are OK then soundness doesn’t matter”. That person is still active today.

I believe these things today as much as I did when I set them out.
Nothing will change in the breed unless people think again about what is the right thing to do to clear up the mess that they have participated in creating. As individuals nothing can be achieved alone.

Mackenzie