Aggression, Hard Dogs and thoughts out loud - Page 1

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by Mackenzie on 23 May 2016 - 06:05

Aggression, Hard Dogs and thoughts out loud

We quite often read comments relating to the topic of this thread, particularly from the USA, where these qualities (?) seem to be the be all and end all requirement for the dogs. Judging from the comments made the object often refers to the training of the dogs to a level above and beyond what is required to fulfil this aspect of their work. The whole thing seems to boil down to what individual owners see as the ultimate fulfilment for a German Shepherd Dog regardless of the detrimental aspect reflecting on the breed as a whole. Training methods for these aims seem to be getting more and more extreme and spoken of and justified as the modern way.

The point I am interested in is, what sort of life does these dogs have and what happens to the dogs when their work or competition time is up simply because they are so fed up with the demands of training and competing? What happens for the failures who having trained for the aggression and hardness to meet the extreme levels asked for by trainers and owners? Quite clearly many, many dogs cannot be re-homed purely because they are a liability and unsafe. Are they just euthanized, taken somewhere and shot, or, sold to unsuspecting prospective owners who have no idea of the dogs mentality or state of mind.

It really makes me wonder where the breed is going in the future.

Mackenzie

Prager

by Prager on 23 May 2016 - 06:05

To OP. Why don't you tell us first what, according to you is the " ultimate fulfilment for a German Shepherd Dog"?

by Mackenzie on 23 May 2016 - 08:05

Prager this is not about what my opinion is regarding the ultimate fulfilment for a GSD is. It is just my thoughts out loud about the treatment of dogs whose main ideal for their owners is the level of aggression and hardness often at excessive levels. Perhaps you would care to comment on what you do with your dogs who do not meet with your ideals, for example, when they do not compete at the absolute top levels or train up quickly enough to satisfy you and, in particular dogs who are of a young age of say between two an four years of age. Do you keep them all, or, do you do something else with them? If they do not meet the level that you expect in terms of the biting exercise do you still breed from them? What do other people do?

Mackenzie

GSDfan

by GSDfan on 23 May 2016 - 08:05

Protection training should not change a dogs temperament. If it does the dog either had a bad temperament to begin with or the training is bad.

Provided there isnt a temperament problem. I see more sad stories with mal's getting bounced around than GSD's. You can usually always find a pet home for a wash. But washed mals usually have all the drive but lack the nerve for the work wich leaves them difficult to live with but not good enough to work.

If the dog is ideal but too much for the owner in terms of control, provided they are intact and under 3yrs u can always find another working home or PD with an experienced handler who will have more sucess with capping drives and alternate ways to gain compliance.

Big kennels usually find retirement homes for some of their dogs when they get older to make room for the next generation. Or they go to family members. These homes are not too hard to find as some people like getting a free well trained dog. To Kennel owners or top sport people, they do not think with their heart. Its a business, the dogs are equipment or a product. Top soprt ppl whos aim is the podium will go through a couple dogs to find a keeper. Their washes are usually more than suitable for someone looking to stay at club level so easily sellable.

I personally, and most people who do this as a hobby keep the dogs for life. Sometimes it means you have one or two or three more dogs than you would like but you make due in order to have a dog to enjoy working. My dogs Are trained in a style where protection training is extremely stimulating and their most favorite activity. You seem to have an impression it is contrary to that. They do not get burned out...they just get old, and when the risk of injury outweighs the owners  desire and reason  to work them the decision must be made to retire them, much to the dogs protest.


by Mackenzie on 23 May 2016 - 08:05

GSDfan I am certainly not against the biting exercise as it is fundamental to the SV rules regarding the requirements of a working dog. It is about the excessive levels of aggression and hardness that we see too often today and what happens to the dogs that do not perform to those levels. Is their lives restricted to living in a kennel to only come out to go to the training ground and shows, or, does it include socialising situations like a walk in the park, walking through a tight environment like walking down the high street or some other crowded place? Can the dog be handled by other people and petted. Mostly the answer is NO.

The biting exercise is a dangerous discipline to teach and not all dogs are suitable to go on and train for this. Once a dog is in training and particularly the dogs trained for excess aggression and hardness the dangers are not removed from the dogs when they are re-homed. Most of the dogs will be a liability no matter how small. Many dogs will perceive situations which they decide is a bite work related condition and they will bite. Further once taking the bite not all dogs will come out on first command which is an essential requirement of any working dog. No pet owner wants this type of dog and experienced trainers do not want to take a new dog on when the animal has a major problem that has to be dealt with before moving on to other disciplines.

Stimulation must come to dogs from a variety of situations. Stimulation for kennel dogs can be that the dog is just glad to get out of the kennel and away from that environment.

Mackenzie

GSDfan

by GSDfan on 23 May 2016 - 09:05

You are talking about a small number of dogs IMO. Most of the extremely driven and hard dogs I know also have an off switch and live in a house with family, go on walks and to the park.

True, some don't have an "off switch". Or are sharp...those owners must take care and muzzle their dogs at places like the vet and take responsibility and always have them on leash, tell people no when they ask to pet them etc.

Just because they have strong aggression and harness or extreme does not automatically mean they are a dangerous loose cannon. If they are it's usually more of a temperament issue.

I do not see too many dogs who have strong levels of aggression and hardness in the hands of top sport people who aren't meeting expectations. For the small number of occasions this does happen, I do know a handful of experienced protection dog people with big hearts who have taken in the unwanted. Others were pts. Some were bounced around to different homes where the dog was just kenneled and just used to make puppies, some were sold to PD's and one was sold to a better trainer and made into a top competition dog. I agree no dog like this should be re-homed to a pet person. Most of these were Mal's/dutchies, a couple were GSD's, one was a Dobe (who could have easily been re-homed to a working dog person). Most of the reasons were either control issues (due to harness) or handler aggression.


GSDfan

by GSDfan on 23 May 2016 - 09:05

Additionally, most dogs in terms of IPO sport will not bite for real without a fair amount of additional training. So errors in perception simply do not exist...in relation to their having been "trained to bite".

If a dog has an excessive level of aggression as to where they are incorrectly perceiving things a threat that are clearly not a threat...it is a temperament issue.

by vk4gsd on 23 May 2016 - 09:05

The IPO dogs I have seen trained for top level competition are the safest, best trained, social, well mannered, happy, healthy dogs I have ever seen. Far safer, better trained, more reliable and compliant than 99.9999999% of Fifi pet dogs out there.

The vast majority of sport people keep their dog regardless of how far it might get, winning is just a bonus.

Just beware of the gangsta dog crowd, they are all over compensating.
 


by Mackenzie on 23 May 2016 - 10:05

GSDfan you said "Additionally, most dogs in terms of IPO sport will not bite for real without a fair amount of additional training". Once a dog bites whether it is for IPO, Sch H, or, a pet dog it is always for real. A bite is a bite particularly when it is a member of the public going about their normal way of life or a child.

You said "If a dog has an excessive level of aggression as to where they are incorrectly perceiving things a threat that are clearly not a threat...it is a temperament issue". Not totally true. Sometimes it can be temperament but once a dog has been trained the situations for the dog perceiving a situation incorrectly come from it's training. People running is always a reason to stop or bite them in the dogs mind. That is what they are trained to do. How many dogs that are discarded are retrained before being passed on to a third party?

Mackenzie

GSDfan

by GSDfan on 23 May 2016 - 10:05

Mackenzie can you share your age and experience with the breed?





 


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