Is a healthy bred to standard red and black shepherd as elusive as a unicorn? - Page 3

Still no answer as to experience.

I will share that I have had a very different experience. Just lucky, I guess. I have had quite a few dogs. Not sure how many, actually. A whole lot more than the average pet owner or enthusiast, though. 

Of course there have been isolated incidences of a dog not being perfect, but the vast majority of my GSDs have been incredibly hardy, healthy dogs. Certainly no sudden death at 4yrs old, but honestly, even if that happened to one of mine, unless the breeder deliberately hid a defect in the parents, I would chalk that up to horrendous luck that can happen ANY time you are dealing with living things.

All you can do is seek breeders who do the customary health checks that seem necessary in their lines (yes, it matters a whole lot what lines you are dealing with in terms of what you can expect in terms of health and longevity.) If you want the parents cardiac-tested/certified, you'll most likely be looking at American lines. If you want SV standard, hips and elbows done and guaranteed, then you can go either way between show or working lines of European descent. NO ONE can guarantee the dog will be healthy, but it is not at all hard to find health-tested dogs from healthy parents or breeders who know their lines. If you can't find any, I would hazard a guess that you are not as experienced as you claim, or you would know exactly how/where to find them.

Tracy is a great lead, for starters. There are many others. Many! I think you need to accept that a horrible thing happened but there might not be anyone to blame except Mother Nature. I am very very sorry for the death of your dog. But there is certainly no great magic involved in finding solid GSDs.

gsdstudent I am sorry if you are taking offense at my question. Naturally I have an opinion after loosing a GSD many years ago to DM and now loosing one to dilated cardiomyopathy at just 4 years old and having been involved in show, trials, sport, clubs, and have seen, known, talked with many breeders. The issue my dog died of has a genetic component that has been researched, written about and is known. There are other causes for cardiomyopathy so genetics is not the only one but a genetic predisposition may increase the odds if not also be the cause. It is most likely to occur in males and the age for this particular type is 4-6 year old. Thus my interest in the longevity of the breeding dogs and their offspring.

Koots than you for your recommendation and I have corresponded with that breeder. The distance is a bit of an issue since they are outside of Vancouver, BC and we are in Texas but if that is where I will feel most comfortable in the health and welling being of the dogs bred then that distance issue can be overcome.

Trixx I wish it was the case that most breeders bred to standard but over the years I have become more and more pessimistic of that. Thus you see the notes for 'big boned', 'extra large',  being boasted about on websites, you see the increased or exaggerated roach back, the lack of fluidity in the gate, incorrect number of teeth, or the boxier versions that are present with many trial dogs. 

I would ask you to take a look at the pedigree of your dog lckw, and compare it to the pedigrees of dogs you see on the websites of experienced, respected breeders of West German show lines. Do you see the difference? Why are you even looking at websites of breeders who advertise "extra large"? Do you not see the red flags in your dog's pedigree that showed your last breeders lack of experience and willingness to cut corners? I fear that in your pursuit of health clearances that you are going to make the same mistakes again. You don't need to travel outside of your state to find a well bred dog from a breeder who has decades of experience.

Totally agree with Marko except on the out of state thing- that may or may not be true depending on what bloodlines you want. No one anyone should take seriously would ever boast "extra large" on their website. But, those are the same type breeders who might test for everything but Mad Cow- lot of good that does you when you're breeding total crap.

If those sites are even coming up in your searches, you're way off track already.

Lckw, was your previous dog necropsied? If not, then you do not know he died from DM. That is am important point; there are many things commonly misdiagnosed as DM that are not DM. Too many people get scared off by it and we just had a long thread where a dog was misdiagnosed and thankfully, the owner just kept pushing for the RIGHT answer instead of accepting that there was nothing to be done. My reason for bringing this up is that when people/buyers are better informed, they make better decisions as to what dogs to purchase. Take what you've learned from the last two (I would love to see pedigrees on them) and do your best to do better next time, that is, if either of them actually died from purely genetic causes, which we just don't know and likely will never know.

Again, very sorry you had to witness that.

There are definitely breeders in the TX/LA area that breed to SV standards.

Red and black is not a standard color in the GSD breed .. the standard or most dominant color is sable. Breeding for a color is not based on what is healthy for the GSD .. it is all about marketing and money for breeders and vanity for owners. If anyone truly wants a healthy GSD then don't limit the breed to one color pattern.

BooBoo, it IS a 'Standard' colour as it has always been listed in the Standard (from earliest versions).  Yes at the beginning Sables were something more of the 'default' position, but the variety of dogs which made up the GSD breed came in a variety of colours, including the saddle patterned black & tan.  The reddish-gold tan shade may have been the more recently prevalent (if we can refer to about 50 or more of the breeds' 117 years as 'recent') because breeders aimed for it.    Just how much that aim was due to Show preferences, and how much due to the fact that the buying public LIKE it, is a topic we could debate;  but  I think it very unlikely that MOST GSD breeders in the world aim at the colour-tone over all else in their stock (the way some puppy farmers try to maximise long coats and/or 'off' / dilute colours in their stock just because they sell).  Too much emphasis on things like improving hips and gait, for a priority to have been JUST red & black.  You really should not judge the whole breed fancy by the actions of a minority (even if there is some justification for feeling that the worldwide minority is maybe a bit of a majority among the "we can do whatever we like" American kennels).  The fact that many working line people have always been able to keep a lot of sables and all-blacks in their lines (available for Americans to buy) should tell you what the world position is.  Its a German dog; discount Europe at your peril. After all, its not as though nobody ever lost a sable dog to disease.

I have never seen a sable or a black with missing teeth due to the over use of inbreeding. I have seen lots of red and blacks with missing teeth and or a floppy ear due to inbreeding. The fact is that the incessant breeding for red and black color has concentrated health problems at a much higher percentage in this portion of the GSD population and this stupidity was created and sanctioned by the SV. The percentage of health problems is much higher in the red and black GS dogs bred for beauty and marketing than in sables or less beauty show created colors. The original GSD population that founded the breed contained few of the vivid red and black colors created by the SV post WWII ... money not health is the driving force behind the red and black colors.

Bubba, that´s very interesting, because out of my ( German ) experience there are more "missing teeth" within the working line population ( same with missing testicles and back problems, whereas ear problems seem to be related to show lines first and foremost ).

Yes, but the two worst sets of ears in the dogs I last worked with both belonged to very dark 'blanket-backed' dogs, with mixed S/L & Working ancestors ...