When Line Breeding Where Do you Cross The Line: - Page 5

I don´t think a 2/3 or a 3/2 is too close, in case you are linebreeding (inbreeding) to outstanding specimen of the breed.
Right now it´s not allowed for GSDs any more ( 3/3 allowed ) - makes sense if you want to broaden the genepool ( there are more than enough GSDs out there ), but difficult with rare breeds ( simply not enough dogs out of different lines ).
With linebreeding/inbreeding you may not only manifest the best, but maybe the worst, too - in case you don´t personally know the ancestors and siblings, it´s a gamble.

Susie, NOT 'stupid' ! I think your conclusions ^^^ (all of them) are correct; internationally, there ARE many GSD owners who are too stupid / apathetic to read; there are many GSD breeders who are selling dogs willy-nilly without keeping tabs on where they go or what happens to them & what they are bred with, so they do not have access to samples ; and in many cases unless they are directly affected, people don't participate. Add all those groups together and I am sure they outweigh the few people in the breed who DO want to learn more and contribute and work in concert with others to get to the bottom of stuff. I really don't know what we do about that - talking about the existence of such research does not produce much enthusiasm among fellow owners to join in & volunteer their dogs.

There are a number of research projects in the UK currently which are either new, or have been going for a while but are not making as much progress as was hoped, due to not getting enough people and their dogs coming forward. I am so tired of doing what I can to participate (given that I do not always have whatever doggy 'guinea pig' they are looking for at the time they call for samples, when there are age criteria etc) only to be told I'm one of very few and things cannot progress until more come forward.

But because I have got used to that, I did not feel as surprised as you seem to be about this particular one !

I simply DON'T have time for the involvement these threads require - aggravated by the mean "tricks" the PKEditor plays. Tonight I prepared two replies which included "tables". First I had a problem with getting the table to show as a whole on the pdb screen, so had to remove that version, alter my copy of the file's mafins and font-size, then start again. Went well - UNTIL I tried to [Submit] it - whereupon I got the "something left at the vet" message, and all the formatting was gone, converted to the base-codes (which are NOT supposed to be seen, just read invisibly by the software then used to produced colours & sizes, etc) plus black ASCII-text.

But there were a couple of posts that I enjoyed or felt impelled to respond to. so here is the short first one. Surely not even the CKEditor can bugger IT up!

[gsdstudent] 20.10.2016 - 11:10

● "does anybody remember the camp fire song [ Boy Scouts, 1960 to 1970] " I'm my own Grand Pa?'' Now that would be too close inbreeding"
Actually, there is NO inbreeding in that (and I put up woth one evening in the Cubs level of Boy Scouts then returned to the St.John's Ambulance classes), it is merely wordplay based on a legalistic interpretation of "my daughter" and "grandpaw" rather than any genetic meaning.
Listen & read:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7AvG6q_iTcA
then click to stop-and-think when the screen reaches
"For my daughter was my mother-in-law. she was my father's wife".

At that stage the red-head was NOT his daughter. There is no mention of him legally adopting her - and she would no doubt have been legally able to refuse being adopted as she was presumably old enough to be her own "owner". If she HAD been adopted, I suspect that she would not, legally, have been allowed to marry his father. Who was it that stated "The law is a ass"? Ah yes - Mr. Bumble in Charles Dickens' 1838 'Oliver Twist'.

So, after I invent a mother (Mary?) for "ME" and a father (Robert?) for the "Red-head", genetically the situation at that stage was:

		ME	My FATHER
			Mary?
	Red headed DAUGHTER	Robert?
		WIDDER

Not a trace of any genetic relationship, unless you count Adam and Eve.

After THAT the song's situations get more complicated:

Baby BOY (Billy?)	ME	My FATHER
		Mary?
	WIDDER	Robert?
SON (Roger?)	My FATHER
	Red headed DAUGHTER	Robert?
		WIDDER

So STILL no line-breeding, and no in-breeding, just the mischievous delight of poking fun at the conventional labels for family relationships. Of course, had one of the babies been a GIRL and later married the BOY, then you would have had 3 : 2 inbreeding on My FATHER and 2 : 3 in-breeding on the WIDDER. But PLEASE don't use that possibility to add another couple of verses to the song!
When it comes to THIS thread's topic, there is no line-crossing in that pedigree, NO line-breeding involved in that song.

[susie] 21.10. 2016 - 17:10
● "I don´t think a 2/3 or a 3/2 is too close, in case you are linebreeding (inbreeding) to outstanding specimen of the breed."
I have unintentionally had a couple of 2 : 1 litters. The first encouraged me to do a 2 : 2 inbreeding on my foundation brood, the son:mother litter having indicated that a "French front" was the only drawback in Rella's genotype. The second, some generations  later, confirmed that the dam's mother was, although BS.Cl.1, NOT one whose hip-genes should be line-bred on, and so I "bred out" until she was in about theE 5:4 positions.
But I prefer the policy in force during the time of Herr Hutter and Drs Funk and Rummel: AVOID in-breeding unless you have a VERY good reason for doing so, and follow that by at LEAST 2 generations of "breeding out".

● "Right now it´s not allowed for GSDs any more ( 3/3 allowed ) - makes sense if you want to broaden the genepool ( there are more than enough GSDs out there ),"
Untrue. The original in-breeding and close-line-breeding that "set the type" for the breed has resulted in all living GSDs being genetically VERY close - and for the "noble lines" the influence of Hermann Martin made that intensely so. The stud who is likely to be the sire of my next purchase (if the dam's breeder likes him!) has this line-breeding in the pdb:

Wright's Hardiman's 3 - 4 VA2 Quenn vom Löher Weg SCHH3, FH 0.57% 0.93%         ↳4 - 5         ↳V27 Uran vom Moorbeck SCHH3                 ↳5 - 6             ↳V Vina vom Moorbeck SCHH1                     ↳6 - 7                 ↳V Merri vom Hirschel SchH1             ↳4 - 5         ↳V Elsa vom Kuckucksland SCHH2                 ↳5 - 6             ↳SG10 Kerrie vom Feuermelder SCHH2                     ↳6 - 7                 ↳V Quinta vom Haus Sommerlade SCHH1                 ↳5 - 6             ↳VA4(S) Emo von der Wienerau SCHH3                     ↳6 - 7                 ↳V Urk von der Wienerau SCHH3                     ↳6 - 7                 ↳V Ecki von der Wienerau SCHH2     5,5,6 - 5,6 VA1 Ursus von Batu SCHH3 0.20% 3.13%         ↳6,6,7 - 6,7         ↳V Verena von Batu SCHH2                 ↳7,7,7 - 7             ↳VA1 Zamb von der Wienerau SCHH3                 ↳7,7 - 7             ↳V Maxi von Batu SCHH2             ↳6,6,7 - 6,7         ↳VA1(I) Hobby vom Gletschertopf SCHH3                 ↳7,7 - 7             ↳V Quitta von der Ehrenfeste SCHH1     5 - 5 VA3 Esko vom Dänischen Hof SCHH3 0.20% 1.76%         ↳6 - 6         ↳VA2 Jango vom Fürstenberg SCHH3                 ↳7 - 7             ↳V Wobo vom Lärchenhain SchH3/FH                 ↳7 - 7             ↳V Uta vom Fürstenberg SCHH1             ↳6 - 6         ↳V31 Una von Oxsalis SCHH2     6 - 6,7,7 VA1 Ulk von Arlett SCHH3 0.05%           ↳7 - 7         ↳V Dolly von Arlett SCHH2             ↳7 - 7         ↳VA5 Yago vom Wildsteiger Land SCHH3, FH     6 - 6,7 VA4 Natz vom Steigerhof SCHH3 0.05%           ↳7 - 7         ↳V Paola von der Murrenhütte SchH1     6 - 6 VA10 Scott von Deodatus SCHH3, FH 0.05%           ↳7 - 7         ↳V Gustl vom Wildsteiger Land SchH3             ↳7 - 7         ↳Kenti vom Farbenspiel SCHH1     7 - 6,7 V1 Eros von der Luisenstraße SCHH3, ÉLITE A 0.02%   6 - 7 V6 Hanno von der Wienerau SCHH3, IPO2 0.03%   7 - 6,7 2X VA2 Karly von Arminius SCHH3 0.03%   6,7 - 7 V Lux de Valdovin SCHH3, FH3 0.02%   7 - 6 V13 Largo vom Breidenbacher-Schloß SCHH3 0.02%   7 - 6,7 V Nina von der Römerau SCHH1 0.03%   7,7 - 7 V Nutz vom Mönchberg SCHH3 0.01%   7 - 7 V Hexe von der Römerau SCHH1 0.01%   7,7 - 7,7 VA1 BSZS 1994 Kimon van Dan Alhedy's Hoeve SCHH3 0.01%   7,7,7 - 7 VA1 Jeck vom Noricum SCHH3, FH 0.01%   7,7 - 7 VA1 Visum von Arminius SCHH3, FH, BHP1 0.01%   7 - 7 V Daggi vom Farbenspiel SCHH2 0.01%   7 - 7 V23 Nilo von Adeloga SCHH3, HGH 0.01%

And THAT is counting only the P1-to-P7 generations. Dogs such as Jeck Noricum and Visum Arminius are sure to be MUCH more "present" in the P8-9-10 generations than listed there. Although the later generations don't much increase the CoI%, they DO increase the opportunities for the ancestor's UNWANTED genes to nevertheless be present behind both the actual parents and therefore present in the stud (or brood) for passing on to ITS progeny.

 

continuing to [susie] - my reply to her, while intact, produced the 404 "Oops something was left at the vet" message more than once, plus a couple of other problems. Dunno about a 404, but were I a gun addict I'd be thinking about a 303 with its sight on the creator of the "touchy" PKEditor!

 Fortunately the brood I am interested in has relatively few of HIS ancestors, so that if my Qualli gets born the pdb will state "No common ancestry was found in 5 generations". Because I am not allowed to use the full-pedigree function before the litter is born, I have to create the "real" pedigree afresh (and afterwards delete it) to check for the 5 ancestors (plus 5 of THEIR ancestors) that Qualli's sire and dam share inside 7 generations:

6 - 4 2x VA1 Yasko vom Farbenspiel SCHH3, FH 0.20% 2.34%         ↳7 - 5         ↳VA1 Connie vom Farbenspiel SCHH3     6 - 5 2X VA1 Rikkor von Bad-Boll SCHH3, FH 0.10% 1.37%         ↳7,7 - 6         ↳VA1 Ulk von Arlett SCHH3             ↳7 - 6         ↳V3 Hella vom Wutachtal SCHH2     6,6,6,7,7 - 5 VA1 Ursus von Batu SCHH3 0.10% 1.56%         ↳7,7,7 - 6         ↳V Verena von Batu SCHH2             ↳7,7,7 - 6         ↳VA1(I) Hobby vom Gletschertopf SCHH3     7 - 6 V1 Eros von der Luisenstraße SCHH3, ÉLITE A 0.02% % 7 - 6 V Lux de Valdovin SCHH3, FH3 0.02% %

and you will see that she has each common ancestor only ONCE.

● "With linebreeding/inbreeding you may not only manifest the best, but maybe the worst, too - in case you don´t personally know the ancestors and siblings, it´s a gamble."
Which is why READING and LISTENING are high in the list of skills that breeders NEED! But there is a HELLUVALOT of suppression going on - plus that much that emerges from the gossip line is based on deliberate malice rather than attempting to spread FACTS.

However, DELIBERATE incest-breeding is - until the microbiologists know the purpose of EVERY allele in the canine genome - an effective way of identifying which "nasty" recessives are possessed by the inbred-on ancestor. Which is why afflicted pooches and known carriers were utilised in "test matings" before veterinary science had other ways to reduce the risks - but the current techniques rarely ELIMINATE the risks, they merely reduce them a few steps.

For those who don't see the relevance to this thread:
Line-breeding - especially the IN-breeding version of it - is commonly regarded as "doubling up on names". but in reality it is an attempt to double up on ALLELES of genes.
And TEST-MATING is done to find out whether your own pooch possesses the same "bad" allele or alleles that the test-partner is known to possess either heterozygously (which gives poor odds of a "clearance" being reliable) or homozygously (which means that every pup in the test litter is at least a carrier, and if the effect of that "bad" allele is seen then your pooch is also a carrier so should normally be neutered).

I am waiting in a Bd cert'd vet hospital because my dog needs a very dangerous surgery. A lady is here with an It Massive [sp?] which has epilepsy starting at 6 months. Breeder will no longer use any of his line. Told her about this thread and she may join to learn more about his problem.

I am waiting in a Bd cert'd vet hospital because my dog needs a very dangerous surgery. A lady is here with an It Massive [sp?] which has epilepsy starting at 6 months. Breeder will no longer use any of his line. Told her about this thread and she may join to learn more about his problem.

@Alamance: best wishes to your dog, hope the surgery goes well.

a 3-4 ( for example) can result in a closer linebreeding result than a 2-2 or 2-3 for example as breeding is more than adding up numbers

some dogs can carry a lot of genes from a dog in the third gen. of his pedigree, and others have allmost nothing from their parent or grandparent you are linebreeding on

I did close linebreedings resulting in very healthy animals and did outcrosses resulting in healthissues,
take your pick

[duke1965] 8.11.2016 - 11:11

● "a 3-4 ( for example) can result in a closer linebreeding result than a 2-2 or 2-3 for example as breeding is more than adding up numbers
some dogs can carry a lot of genes from a dog in the third gen. of his pedigree, and others have allmost nothing from their parent or grandparent you are linebreeding on"
I won't call COIs nonsense - I am aware that they are an "on average" estimation. But true in-breeding is bringing together 2 copies of the same allele, regardless of how far back in the pedigree each copy came from. If you succeed, there was 100% success, 100% COI for that allele.
Not many people will believe that it is statistically possible to mate together Bob and Bette (the children of Don and Mary) and get one male who has inherited NOT ONE  gene from Mary, and one female who has inherited NOT ONE gene from Don. It IS possible (although it is not possible for the male to have ONLY genes from Mary and the fremale to have ONLY genes from Don) - but as I discontinued Applied Maths in 1958 and have not used it since I do not propose to pretend to calculate the odds of either happening!

● "I did close linebreedings resulting in very healthy animals and did outcrosses resulting in healthissues, take your pick"
Obviously you were fortunate with the line-breedings, and didn't know enough about the genetics of the outcross ancestors. You wouldn't be the first breeder to be in THAT situation! The more that a person relies on income from their stock sales, the more they attempt to hide the "bad" recessives that they have discovered in their lines. In laissez faire nations (where testing is not required) they don't HAVE to go as far as certain breeders in Germany and Australia do: Xraying their promising youngsters a week or two before they reach 1 year old, and if the plates don't look good the pup is not woken and the plates are destroyed.
It is sad that breeders who want to improve their stock's genetics have to resort to listening to gossip, despite knowing that much of the "information?" from that source is scurrilous deliberately-started lies aimed to make rival pooches sound unattractuve.