When Line Breeding Where Do you Cross The Line: - Page 8

"Noitsyou Swarnendu, good response about different sex..."    Sorry for the confusion

 

VK, the main problem in my opinion is not the breed standard in itself, but to deracinate a breed out of its traditional surrounding. German Shepherd Dogs have been shepherd dogs for centuries, they have not even been a "breed" but simply working dogs, and without breed standard there would be almost no descendants of these dogs around any more ( no more need ).

It is difficult to preserve working abilities in a breed that isn´t used for "real" work any more.
All this titling and training, SchH, IPO, HGH, including the AD, later on RH was introduced out of this aspect only.

Conformation ratings were introduced to "create" a uniform looking breed, although the standard still leaves a lot of room for different types.

So I think not only trials are very important, but conformation shows, and breed surveys, too.

Any deviation from the standard ( working ability, health, and conformation ) is a result of personal faults, breeders, owners, judges, not caring about the breed, but about money first and foremost.
 

You call it deracination, i call it monetarisation.

Do you realise the traditional role of herding dogs is rapidly increasing and has been for some time, same as guardian breeds. Economists have formally proven why.

Of course gsd breeders would not know that nor can they supply dogs to meet that demand... so its nothing to do with deracinating, which you non native English speaker made me google the meaning of.

" Do you realise the traditional role of herding dogs is rapidly increasing and has been for some time, same as guardian breeds. Economists have formally proven why."

Not over here, sorry...and without massive government support there would be almost no sheep and shepherds any more,
28 million sheep in the 19. century, around 1,6 million right now.

But honestly, the founder wasn´t interested in herding, he wanted to create a breed based on the temperament, type, and character of those dogs.

Kiwi linebreeding and selection is what is done in nature for thousands of generations, but they just got lucky

lets make it simple, take any single quality or point on a dog as example a big head, or any other,

now you can take a dog with a big head, breed it to a dog with a small head and take a dog with small head from that litter and expect it to throw big heads just because daddy had it

or you take a big head pup from litter, breed it to big head, and have a third generationn with big head

now fenotype is following genotype so we can assume that this third generation has more chance of passing on granddaddys gene for big head, than the second generation with a small head

so any dogs name on multiple pedigrees doesnot mean same package of genes on any of the pedigree that dog is on or any of his/hers kids/grandkids

that is why all breeding done by book wisdom and graphs and scheduals and names being somewhere in the pedigree is as good as a shot in the dark

Kiwi linebreeding and selection is what is done in nature for thousands of generations, but they just got lucky

lets make it simple, take any single quality or point on a dog as example a big head, or any other,

now you can take a dog with a big head, breed it to a dog with a small head and take a dog with small head from that litter and expect it to throw big heads just because daddy had it

or you take a big head pup from litter, breed it to big head, and have a third generationn with big head

now fenotype is following genotype so we can assume that this third generation has more chance of passing on granddaddys gene for big head, than the second generation with a small head

so any dogs name on multiple pedigrees doesnot mean same package of genes on any of the pedigree that dog is on or any of his/hers kids/grandkids

that is why all breeding done by book wisdom and graphs and scheduals and names being somewhere in the pedigree is as good as a shot in the dark

Susie if the type temperament and character is what has been preserved for the last 150 years then there shouldn't be any problem finding ones that can do the job out of the tens of thousands born every year.... we both know that's not going to happen.

the reason only few from the thousands can do the job so to speak is outcrossing for the reason of outcrossing only

VK, when you are including the whole population of GSDs ( like Alsatians, American lines, or untitled dogs out of different countries ) you may be right, when you are looking at titled dogs out of titled ancestors only you are wrong.

There are still enough lines and litters you are able to pick a good working dog from, even from some German showlines...
but not every GSD is able and willing to work, never has been.
Even the former sheepherders selected their dogs, and they culled the not "useful" ones.

But about which "job" are you talking? Herding, police, IPO, RH, scent detection, PPD ?

Our breed became one of the most fancy breeds over the decades ( and all of that very fast ), in case you think worldwide most GSDs today are bred by people who never trained or titled their breeding stock in any venue.

Personally I wouldn´t allow to breed working dogs ( no matter the breed, no matter the "job" ) without proof of working ability. I don´t want to see a working dog breed end up as a pet breed, I don´t want to see German Shepherds living as neurotic couch potatoes, and I am sad that training has become that efficient that good trainers are able to title mediocre dogs ( good for the single dog, but not good for the breed as a whole ).
And it makes me sad that people not only forget about the standard working wise, but conformation wise, too ( like overangulation, oversize, overweight ).

This breed was never ment to be a pet breed, this breed was created because of outstanding working abilities, temperament, and intelligence of some German shepherd dogs, and everybody who wants to own or breed dogs of this kind should take care of the original goal ( a working dog looking like a German Shepherd Dog ).

But what am I ranting about? Even over here a lot of people don´t care - but worse: our "weeded out" dogs are still good enough for other Nations as "world class" breeding stock...

Spot on Susie.

Mackenzie

Good post Susie, acknowledging the sadness!😉