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by Bavarian Wagon on 30 November 2016 - 22:11
The only important point you made in that whole rant was that basically any dog that is trained with a sleeve or any type of equipment is going to be working in prey and therefore can’t protect. You also stated that this is YOUR OPINION and you are 100% right in that it’s your opinion. It is so far from fact that it’s laughable. I will easily admit to having a very prey based dog…has absolutely ZERO problem biting a hidden sleeve in prey. Dog has such strong nerves that he’s basically impossible to get into defense and he would have ZERO problem protecting me or biting anyone that decided to take a swing.
You still haven’t explained to me where in a PPD or LE situation a dog really NEEDS defense. Is it when the suspect is running away from the dog or completely surrendering because there is a dog there? Do tell where exactly in your chosen line of training a dog NEEDS to be working in or tested in defense? That dog I’m talking about above...has been tested in all sorts of weird situations…not once has he ever let go of the bite or stopped fighting. Trust me when I say none of that is out of defense. You think my dog has never been at the end of the leash barking/growling/snapping at an equipment-less helper in a situation that replicates how an actual attack on us would look to the dog? He has countless times…it’s how everyone teaches 95% of dogs a bark and hold. Practically speaking does it matter what drive my dog is in at that time…I can guarantee you its prey and yet it doesn’t matter one bit because he’ll easily bite anything that comes close enough. Think that would matter to a real attacker or a suspect?
Anyways…your first paragraph sums it up for anyone that actually has half a brain to think by themselves. DEFENSE sounds like a more BA word than PREY and therefore the big tough guy would rather say it and make claims about how great his dog is in DEFENSE rather than PREY. No one should actually care at all about what drive their dog is in as long as it’s biting and performing the task that’s asked of it (like protecting you). The only people that care are the ones I’ve described before…the ones that need to TALK about their own dogs and make them sound more BA because they CAN’T prove it on the field. Protecting, is protecting, it doesn’t matter if it’s done out of prey or out of defense. Trust me…your dog doesn’t care and neither would the person getting bit.
You still haven’t explained to me where in a PPD or LE situation a dog really NEEDS defense. Is it when the suspect is running away from the dog or completely surrendering because there is a dog there? Do tell where exactly in your chosen line of training a dog NEEDS to be working in or tested in defense? That dog I’m talking about above...has been tested in all sorts of weird situations…not once has he ever let go of the bite or stopped fighting. Trust me when I say none of that is out of defense. You think my dog has never been at the end of the leash barking/growling/snapping at an equipment-less helper in a situation that replicates how an actual attack on us would look to the dog? He has countless times…it’s how everyone teaches 95% of dogs a bark and hold. Practically speaking does it matter what drive my dog is in at that time…I can guarantee you its prey and yet it doesn’t matter one bit because he’ll easily bite anything that comes close enough. Think that would matter to a real attacker or a suspect?
Anyways…your first paragraph sums it up for anyone that actually has half a brain to think by themselves. DEFENSE sounds like a more BA word than PREY and therefore the big tough guy would rather say it and make claims about how great his dog is in DEFENSE rather than PREY. No one should actually care at all about what drive their dog is in as long as it’s biting and performing the task that’s asked of it (like protecting you). The only people that care are the ones I’ve described before…the ones that need to TALK about their own dogs and make them sound more BA because they CAN’T prove it on the field. Protecting, is protecting, it doesn’t matter if it’s done out of prey or out of defense. Trust me…your dog doesn’t care and neither would the person getting bit.
by Prager on 30 November 2016 - 22:11
@ melba.
I have seen this video before. Very nice dog. But if the purpose is PP or LE I would not let it carry the toy but make him keep focus on the decoy. Is there a pedigree? I would love to see pedigreeon her.
by melba on 30 November 2016 - 23:11
by Prager on 30 November 2016 - 23:11
BW: The only important point you made in that whole rant was that basically any dog that is trained with a sleeve or any type of equipment is going to be working in prey and therefore can’t protect. You also stated that this is YOUR OPINION and you are 100% right in that it’s your opinion. It is so far from fact that it’s laughable. I will easily admit to having a very prey based dog…has absolutely ZERO problem biting a hidden sleeve in prey. Dog has such strong nerves that he’s basically impossible to get into defense and he would have ZERO problem protecting me or biting anyone that decided to take a swing.
Hans:
I am glad that I made you laugh. Why do you need to get personal though? Aaaaanyway.
Nowhere have I said that dogs in prey can not act as protectors. it would be stupid of me to say so since thousands of dogs are trained that way. But is that optimal? I do not think so. If this time more carefully would re-read my former post you would see that I have said that most dogs these days are trained in prey to protect . Which is unnatural because in nature prey is used to provide food and not to protect. The fact however is that in prey you can teach the dogs to basically hunt people which to naive trainers looks like protection. But that is not protection. That is hunting. There is a difference. The reason such approach is inadequate is because such dog is not trained to deal with adversity of being pushed into defense drive. And if such dog in real life situation is pushed into defense = flight or fight, then he has no training to deal with it and must rely on his instincts. And that IMO is unfortunate.
.............
BW: You still haven’t explained to me where in a PPD or LE situation a dog really NEEDS defense. Is it when the suspect is running away from the dog or completely surrendering because there is a dog there? Do tell where exactly in your chosen line of training a dog NEEDS to be working in or tested in defense? That dog I’m talking about above...has been tested in all sorts of weird situations…not once has he ever let go of the bite or stopped fighting. Trust me when I say none of that is out of defense. You think my dog has never been at the end of the leash barking/growling/snapping at an equipment-less helper in a situation that replicates how an actual attack on us would look to the dog? He has countless times…it’s how everyone teaches 95% of dogs a bark and hold. Practically speaking does it matter what drive my dog is in at that time…I can guarantee you its prey and yet it doesn’t matter one bit because he’ll easily bite anything that comes close enough. Think that would matter to a real attacker or a suspect?
Hans: that is a fair question and I think I have explained it in the part of the post above. Here I will say never say never. I am here to tell you that there is a point where any dog can be pushed into defense drive where the dog must choose fight or flight. When I train dogs I do train the dog to be prepared for such eventuality and I teach him to chose fight. I do not train for 99% of situations I train even for that 1% which you do choose to ignore because in your opinion iot is not likely to happen. That is fine, that is your choice, but not mine.
...........
BW: Anyways…your first paragraph sums it up for anyone that actually has half a brain to think by themselves. DEFENSE sounds like a more BA word than PREY and therefore the big tough guy would rather say it and make claims about how great his dog is in DEFENSE rather than PREY. No one should actually care at all about what drive their dog is in as long as it’s biting and performing the task that’s asked of it (like protecting you). The only people that care are the ones I’ve described before…the ones that need to TALK about their own dogs and make them sound more BA because they CAN’T prove it on the field. Protecting, is protecting, it doesn’t matter if it’s done out of prey or out of defense. Trust me…your dog doesn’t care and neither would the person getting bit.
Hans: Oh I can prove it to you with my dogs. The problem is that you think that only proof is doable on SchH field which is truly not realistic.
It is truly sad and indicative of sport people like yourself who feel that they need to insult PP/LE trainers who train for reality and not for sport routine ( nothing wrong with that) , and thus feel to say that they think that Defense training is to show bad ass the dog is.
Well let agree to disagree on that one. :)
Hans:
I am glad that I made you laugh. Why do you need to get personal though? Aaaaanyway.
Nowhere have I said that dogs in prey can not act as protectors. it would be stupid of me to say so since thousands of dogs are trained that way. But is that optimal? I do not think so. If this time more carefully would re-read my former post you would see that I have said that most dogs these days are trained in prey to protect . Which is unnatural because in nature prey is used to provide food and not to protect. The fact however is that in prey you can teach the dogs to basically hunt people which to naive trainers looks like protection. But that is not protection. That is hunting. There is a difference. The reason such approach is inadequate is because such dog is not trained to deal with adversity of being pushed into defense drive. And if such dog in real life situation is pushed into defense = flight or fight, then he has no training to deal with it and must rely on his instincts. And that IMO is unfortunate.
.............
BW: You still haven’t explained to me where in a PPD or LE situation a dog really NEEDS defense. Is it when the suspect is running away from the dog or completely surrendering because there is a dog there? Do tell where exactly in your chosen line of training a dog NEEDS to be working in or tested in defense? That dog I’m talking about above...has been tested in all sorts of weird situations…not once has he ever let go of the bite or stopped fighting. Trust me when I say none of that is out of defense. You think my dog has never been at the end of the leash barking/growling/snapping at an equipment-less helper in a situation that replicates how an actual attack on us would look to the dog? He has countless times…it’s how everyone teaches 95% of dogs a bark and hold. Practically speaking does it matter what drive my dog is in at that time…I can guarantee you its prey and yet it doesn’t matter one bit because he’ll easily bite anything that comes close enough. Think that would matter to a real attacker or a suspect?
Hans: that is a fair question and I think I have explained it in the part of the post above. Here I will say never say never. I am here to tell you that there is a point where any dog can be pushed into defense drive where the dog must choose fight or flight. When I train dogs I do train the dog to be prepared for such eventuality and I teach him to chose fight. I do not train for 99% of situations I train even for that 1% which you do choose to ignore because in your opinion iot is not likely to happen. That is fine, that is your choice, but not mine.
...........
BW: Anyways…your first paragraph sums it up for anyone that actually has half a brain to think by themselves. DEFENSE sounds like a more BA word than PREY and therefore the big tough guy would rather say it and make claims about how great his dog is in DEFENSE rather than PREY. No one should actually care at all about what drive their dog is in as long as it’s biting and performing the task that’s asked of it (like protecting you). The only people that care are the ones I’ve described before…the ones that need to TALK about their own dogs and make them sound more BA because they CAN’T prove it on the field. Protecting, is protecting, it doesn’t matter if it’s done out of prey or out of defense. Trust me…your dog doesn’t care and neither would the person getting bit.
Hans: Oh I can prove it to you with my dogs. The problem is that you think that only proof is doable on SchH field which is truly not realistic.
It is truly sad and indicative of sport people like yourself who feel that they need to insult PP/LE trainers who train for reality and not for sport routine ( nothing wrong with that) , and thus feel to say that they think that Defense training is to show bad ass the dog is.
Well let agree to disagree on that one. :)
by susie on 30 November 2016 - 23:11
by Prager on 01 December 2016 - 00:12
Melba the dog is bread in 3rd and 5th line. The video is older do you have any newer ones?
by Prager on 01 December 2016 - 00:12
Melba the dog is bread in 3rd and 5th line. The video is older do you have any newer ones?
by Shawnicus on 01 December 2016 - 02:12
Hans that's funny ...but answer my question please , whose the baddest, hardest dog out of jinopo whose on the breeding program currently.
by apple on 01 December 2016 - 12:12
With the vid of Melba's dog becoming so defensive with her husband working him-Why do you think he is showing so much defense toward your own husband, his "adopted" family member? The dog doesn't seem too discerning, and he became very defensive simply because your husband was standing there with little to no threat, especially considering the dog is part of the family. Not my idea of a confident dog.
by Mithuna on 01 December 2016 - 12:12
So VK
how do you know what the lady who has Dask is not telling the truth:
that he cannot be petted or given a treat
will bite his handler or anyone else
has extremely his possession over food
Why does this have a be mythologizing?
And apple there are dogs that will bite you right away whether or not you present a threat. It is not necessarily true that such a dog is acting out of lack of confidence.
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