by TIG on 15 February 2020 - 17:02
Koots, a favorite quote of mine from the 60s when it used to be on posters
The society which scorns excellence in plumbing as a humble activity and tolerates shoddiness in philosophy because it is an exalted activity will have neither good plumbing nor good philosophy: neither its pipes nor its theories will hold water.
Substitute science for philosophy and it's where we are today. One of the things I casually track, is reports of scientific fraud and chicanery - they are legion. Try dropping research fraud into google. Sometimes it is "just" a tweaking of data or results to change the outcome(hello climate "science") and sometimes believe it or not the research was never done but reports were written, data made up and published in peer reviewed journals. Even when exposed, the university or journal often refuses to correct the record -leaving the bogus info unchallenged in the public domain. On YouTube look up the secret life of Dr.Chandra- discovered and revealed not once but twice in his career and the univ did nothing. Fascinating and horrendous.
I personally know of another case that a number of organizations inc one I was involved tried to stop the publication in a very prestigious journal of a "study" made up from whole cloth. Journal's attitude -we peer-reviewed it. Problem none of the reviewers had any knowledge of the subject area. We did and had caught the researcher in a # of lies which proved the fraud. We lost - god forbid u challenge an academic these days.
What got me started looking many decades ago was the experience of a best college friend. Right out of college he went to work for a very prestigious research institute known for it's cancer and reproductive research. He was working on the cancer side, in fairly simplistic research looking at does substance "A" cause cancer in mice and at what dosage. They obtained A from outside sources & he found that no testing was ever done on the purity of the compound they were testing so in essence they were testing an unknown and reporting results as if they knew they had an uncontaminated sample.
OP Why am I passionate about this and why does it matter to our breed? Will explain in my next post but have to head off to work.
by TIG on 15 February 2020 - 18:02
As a start the research quoted is about corgis which I have specifically pointed out I am NOT talking about. Please point to the research where they specifically and scientifically id'd corgi dm as the same disease as GSD DM as opposed to calling it that simply because the symptoms were similar. Many diseases can be similiar and in this case there are known differences from classic GSD dm.
As noted off to work.
by hexe on 16 February 2020 - 04:02
I'm not well-versed enough to say whether the DM that is seen in Corgis and Boxers is the same disease as we see in German Shepherd Dogs, so perhaps that DM is equivalent to ALS in humans.
But I'm familiar enough with the forms of DM that occur in GSDs, and it is nothing at all like ALS, save for the fact that it involves the nervous system and demyelinization. That's where the similarities end. As TIG noted, Clemmons' work strongly suggested that while it wasn't a 'canine form of MS', DM of the GSD was much more similar to that human disorder than to ALS.
by beil79 on 16 February 2020 - 08:02
by jillmissal on 16 February 2020 - 09:02
However, you do need considerable scientific vocabulary to understand a lot of these studies and I would say a layperson does not have the ability to comprehend most of this material nor the patience to study it to learn. So I would suggest deferring to the authority; the scientists who have studied these genetics thoroughly and have drawn the conclusion that DM is ALS for all intents and purposes and that it is the same "disease" no matter what breed of dog has it.
In short, DM in Corgis and DM in GSD is one and the same. The literature is very clear. Trying to claim it must be different is an odd stance to take and I truly don't understand why one would want to die on that hill.
by jillmissal on 16 February 2020 - 09:02
it is nothing at all like ALS, save for the fact that it involves the nervous system and demyelinization. That's where the similarities end.
There is a study that addresses this; I recently read it. It's dense but I'll try to find it if you're truly interested. It mentioned that since most of the dogs afflicted are euthanized due to mobility issues, the additional progressions of the disease are rarely seen. However, some of the owners of their study dogs did opt to keep the dogs alive for the purpose of the study of the disease, and they started to see things like compromised ability to swallow, etc which are common in ALS. This suggested to them that the disease was more progressive than is usually seen, but as owners we intervene with euthanasia before it gets that bad.
And, gently, it really doesn't matter what "you've seen" in DM in GSD and whether you think it looks like ALS or not. That's not really meaningful. The veterinary community has mostly come to the collective conclusion that DM is essentially dog ALS and I think that's more likely to be true than just what someone thinks or what their non-scientific opinion is. Dogs aren't people and they won't necessarily exhibit the symptoms of any given affliction in the same way a human does.
I suggest you have a look through the lit with the idea of trying to find out WHY the veterinary community thinks that ALS and DM are essentially the same. Look at the evidence, read WHY they think that. That might help you understand it.
Lastly, scientific studies never conclusively "prove" anything. They give us information that, combined with information from other studies, can help scientists draw theoretical conclusions that they can then build on with more studies. Cherry picking small bits of information from any study is a useless endeavor. That's why we have other experts (veterinarians) to parse the information and pass it on to us in the form of best practices in the industry, which can change and evolve as more information becomes known.
by TIG on 16 February 2020 - 12:02
Jill, from looking at your profile you appear to own Malinois (and suffered from a very uneducated buying exoerience) and Rottwielers. Have you owned GSDs, have you owned GSDs with DM?
Like Hexe, I have as have many who comment on these threads. This is our breed and our dogs and we do have a dog in the fight as the saying goes and we are interested in CORRECT information not just more theories and speculation which radically shrink already compromised gene pools only to be shown wrong later. As a breed we have been down that road before and can not afford it.
I find your arrogance & condescension outrageous, assuming we can not understand the "dense" material that you so religiously believe in. You are new to this board. Hexe is noted for her intelligent, well thought out answers, frequently referencing scientific publications. Me, I've only been a student of the genetics of this breed for a mere 60 years, not only reading on the scientific level but with actual hands on dog experience - something most scientists lack - they forget to look up from the pedigree or microscope and observe the living breathing animal in front of you. Oh and I spent the last 15 years of my career as a medical/ legal researcher.
So first of all you do a bit of research about the level of fraud and research theft that exists in the scientific and academic communities usually for money, prestige and position. AND keep in mind the MILLIONS made on this test. You snidley comment you have journal access presuming others don't. Is that supposed to inform us that you are either a scientist or academic? If so then you already know the kind of dog eat dog world it is and the lengths folks go to maintain their foothold in those world's . Science needs scepticism not religiosity!
I suggest you start with the videos on Dr. Chandra. Please watch all of them The only person who suffered was his assistant who revealed the fraud - oh and any patient relying on his "research". After all they're easy to access.
If you are a scientist please answer the questions I have posed about the problem of applying the SOD1 model to the German Shepherd breed. Specifically
DM necropsied dogs who test NN
Carriers of 2 copies of THE SOD1 mutations who are disease free
Disease in dogs who only test as carriers
The 8% incidence conondrum
As a presumed scientist you should well know that mere presence is not necessarily causation. Or as better stated to you before in other threads - correlation is NOT causation.
Plus as noted above we are even lacking consistent correlation
by TIG on 16 February 2020 - 13:02
by TIG on 16 February 2020 - 16:02
Finally see if you can come up with a plausible rational explanation for the conondrum their latest trial presents. If the theory is truly good for ALL dogs as you so religiously believe AND specifically they believe it applies to GSDs why are they not specifically soliciting GSDS as they are Boxers and corgis? After all historically we are the ##1 breed presenting with classic DM. Could it be that they are trying to cherry pick their study group to ascertain the results??
Nah we know that's never been done before (said with heavy sarcasm which text does not show)
By the age requirement they've already eliminated from the study early onset GSDs, another of those pesky groups that seem to give researchers problems.
So what's your explanation for such a glaring omission in their solicitation of study animals?
by hexe on 18 February 2020 - 06:02
I am always interested in reading reference materials, so if you've got link or copy of the study you referenced, I would be glad to read it over--it's highly unlikely I'll find it "dense", so no worries there.
I also am familiar with the back story of the research on DM in GSDs, and how it came to pass that the single individual who had ever expressed a sincere interest in studying the disease wasn't the one who ended up being funded by the deep pockets that bankrolled the additional research which was done.
The SOSD-1 gene variation may be at work in the disorder that affects Corgis, Boxers or other breeds, and perhaps it is indicative of some type of ailment in GSDs, but the key for DM in this breed still remains to be seen, IMO.