Blue eyes? - Page 3

Look at these two pictures. Can anyone say that if they saw them, they would identify this one as a black GSD

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=2922396-fox-den-mistletoe

Or his dam as a black & tan GSD?

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=2565557-regalimage-aurora-borealis

 

Yvonne, Um, yeah, would be doing some genetic testing on those dogs for sure!

 

Rik, just saw your post now. It got pushed down the page, so I missed it. I'll address your second point first, as it's the easiest.

The distribution of melanocytes in the fetus determine eye and skin colour. White skin lacks in melanocytes, and produces white fur. If the skin near or around an eye is white, the animal's eye will be blue. This is why some Pandas have blue eyes and others don't. It's also why some dogs have one blue eye and one brown. I have also seen this very frequently in paint/pinto horses.

Franka's mutation is on the KIT gene. Kit mutations have occurred in other animals of other species, and produce white markings and blue eyes. https://imgur.com/gallery/qwXdV   As you've noted, it can also cause speckling on the face and legs.

KIT mutations are dominant, while the more frequent cause of white spotting, carried on the S locus are incompletely dominant. Unless a puppy randomly mutates the KIT gene, one parent MUST have a visible KIT mutation in order to produce panda offspring.

Both the S gene locus, for the more common white pattern found in many dogs, and the KIT gene locus have been thoroughly documented and researched, and animals can be tested to determine which genes are present.  

Here's more information on the S locus, which causes the more common piebald markings: https://www.animalgenetics.us/canine/canine-color/SLocus.asp

And if you REALLY want to get into the different white spotting patterns that are NOT found in the GSD, there's this link: https://academic.oup.com/jhered/article/100/suppl_1/S66/889589  Yes, it's complicated - VERY complicated! But let me repeat: white spotting related to the S locus is

a) incompletely dominant, unlike the pattern found in the Panda shepherds and

b) is not a spotting pattern that's ever been found in purebred German shepherds.

As for the patterns of white on the Panda coat, most I've seen follow Franka's pattern, with the body being solid in colour, and the white being confined to the face, legs and belly. If you can find me a picture of a purebred Panda with border collie markings, I'd like to see it. I have no doubt a lot of those pictures you saw were due to unscrupulous breeders mixing in other breeds and colour patterns. 

 

Here's a scholarly article about the KIT mutation. You can see from this that it's been very well researched, both in Franka's case, and in other animals.

https://duitseherderdatabase.nl/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/Panda-KIT-gene.pdf

@ Yhecht : I refer you to what I've said in my earlier posts about the non-policing abilities / laxity of attention / concentration on Registration income of the world's various Kennel Clubs. I note that many of the dogs listed on those two 'pedigrees' have AKC reg numbers but do not have photographs. Some of those which do have photos look less like typical German Shepherd Dogs than they should.

The gene seems to have come from this dog's line: http:// http://http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=2189427-sandrock-chief-crazy-horse

If you expand his pedigree to 7 generations, he is descended from Franka, meaning those dogs are likely legitimately Panda shepherds.

Edit: I have no idea why I can't get that link to Sandrock Chief Crazy-horse to work! :(

Use the links Yvonne posted instead!

The most likely reason they are listed in the database as a black and black and tan german shepherd is because the PDB doesn't offer "Panda" as a choice! 

But even the color listing is wrong. The black has lots and lots of white....not your typical little white spot on the chest. and the dam, listed as a black and tan....has very little tan......
Just everything is wrong. Would love to read a Kör report from a German judge. Judge would be apoplectic.

'not your typical little white spot on the chest'...

Yvonne, Panda shepherds are about 35% white, and the pattern is highly variable. They do not have just a little white spot on the chest.

Here's Franka and a couple of her descendants: https://imgur.com/gallery/qwXdV

And yes, I'm sure a Koermeister would have a fit if he saw one, and was told it was a purebred GSD! But of course, these dogs are registered with the AKC, not the SV.

Edit: if you click on 'progeny pictures' for Regalimage, you can see she's produced quite a few Panda offspring, too. And you can also see that the usual thing has happened that ALWAYS seems to happen with backyard breeders that like futzing around with 'rare' colours - someone has introduced a blue GSD to the pedigree! (Where's that 'rolleyes' emoticon gone to when you need it??) Arrggghh...

I just want to say again what I've said before, although in NO WAY do I approve of this sort of breeding, as someone trained in science, the genetics behind it fascinates me.

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=2565557-regalimage-aurora-borealis&p=progeny-pictures

 

Sunsilver, here is a site for you to review and thoughts on this subject.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23134432

Great Granddam not DNA'd

Pokoltanyai Zsizsi

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=542954-lewcinkas-franka-von-phenom

 

 

And why is this a problem? The gene mutation does not skip generations, as it is not recessive. In order to pass it one one of Franka's parents would have had it and showed Panda markings.

Franka's parents had 3 more litters after she was born, and none of the pups had white markings. That's a pretty clear indication there wasn't a recessive white gene lurking there, either.

It might not be a gene mutation but another breed mixed in. The testing was done on sire and dam not all the dogs in the background of these dogs were DNA'd just saying.