Studs that produce pups with testicular issues - Page 1

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by ltsgsd on 25 January 2021 - 17:01

Is there a list where this information can be found regarding stud dogs that produce puppies with testicular issues, crypto etc?. name stud dogs that this seems to be seen in thre breeedings....


Baerenfangs Erbe

by Baerenfangs Erbe on 25 January 2021 - 19:01

It's not just the studs. It can also be carried by the mothers.

Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 26 January 2021 - 03:01

Well yes, BE !  And besides, Itsgsd, even if it wasn't down to mothers also, if it were just the sires, wouldn't such a list have to include just about every male on the planet ? Haven't looked at the genetics, but the occasional incidence of monorchids, cryptorchids and retained testicles would seem to be pretty endemic, as it does in the wider dog (all breeds) population. Not something you can do an advance test for, either, AFAIK.


by ANordquist on 26 January 2021 - 08:01

It would be useful to know what lines this issue occurs in most frequently. It would be beneficial for those who are breeding to avoid crossing males and females who share those lines. It is an autosomal recessive trait, which means the male has to carry a recessive gene for it and the female has to carry a recessive gene for it. If you cross a male and a female who come from lines that carry the gene you will end up with a litter that has trouble. I am experiencing this right now, and it is no fun.

by ltsgsd on 26 January 2021 - 11:01

I am aware of that BE. As AN replied it would be nice to know before breeding so as to not cross the lines.
If breeders were aware of this trait and honest about it , we could avoid crossing these lines

Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 26 January 2021 - 11:01

Sorry, I think it is SO common, you are on a hiding to nothing, looking for a way to avoid it. An autosomal recessive carried by what is probably a majority of the population (not to mention other possible causes of arrested development) is still outside the wit of 'man' to 'breed it out'. There are so many things we test for and try to restrict the incidence of, and we are so far from perfecting success in most of those, that to restrict breeding further by chasing that particular genetic combo seems to be setting breeders up to fail. Just my 2 cents. I feel the chances of you finding any such list of studs, or getting anyone to take seriously the idea of producing one, is highly unlikely.

Baerenfangs Erbe

by Baerenfangs Erbe on 26 January 2021 - 16:01

Allergies, TV, Cryptorchism, Heart, Eyes, Hips Elbows, EPI, DM, Mega E....

And the list goes on and on and on and on. Personally, Cryptorchism isn't something I'm worried about. I am simply expecting every male to carry for it. However, Allergies on the other hand, or EPI, Mega E. now that is something I'd want to know and which is why I will only breed to males I actually personally know.

Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 27 January 2021 - 03:01

Anyone who has followed my posts on PDB will know full well by now that I do not say the above lightly, won't they ? Normally I am among the first to urge members to make full use of all testing available (even where validity of that test is still a matter of debate, e.g. DM) and to work with, rather than despite, the results. I advocate the change by the kennel clubs to making it impossible to Register litters with them that have not been subject to parental testing (note: not even, as a first stage, CLEARED parental testing !).

But we are never going to win that case and get there, if we keep diverting into more and more genetic conditions. Let's get what we DO know, and can do something about, sorted first. It is fine to call for openness and honesty by breeders, but it is plain to see there are 'breeders' and greeders out there who have no intention of being truthful, or of sharing for the good of the breed.

by ltsgsd on 27 January 2021 - 10:01

Hundmutter, thank you for your info...yes it is like chasing a needle in a haystack.
I am watching a particular stud dog that has bred two -three different females , different lines and testicular issues in two of the breeding, waiting on news from the third.

So if one of these puppies drops late and seems fine , do you continue to breed him or???

Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 27 January 2021 - 10:01

I think the answer to that, Itsgsd, is that because this is so common a situation, and that if the testicles do drop, even if a bit later than average, you ought to be asking yourself about whether that is a reason NOT to breed - IF that is the only thing standing in the way.

The decision to breed, either more from the sire, or from his offspring, ought to be taken on many things; much of which will not become obvious until a lot later in the pup - or an adult dog's - development. Provided that your dog is really good enough to be breeding with (and so many people breed with dogs they really shouldn't, in terms of temperament / training quality / conformation / passing of health tests, etc) then you look at the late development in the context of all those values. It is then a question of whether the possibility that some of his offspring will also be slow to drop is enough to waste a dog that: has Excellent hips and elbows, is DM Clear, shows no sign of fitting, has all its teeth and everything else in the appropriate numbers & places, has achieved a good basic standard in whatever discipline you choose to do for work / sport , and so on. Similar applies to the sire you used; if he keeps on producing multiple problems, it might make me think twice about using him again - but with yet another different bitch it might be okay.  A puppy in two out of three litters so far, if that's all it is, seems so within the boundaries of the "all puppies are crapshoots" situation - particularly if they were larger litters and there is simply delay in dropping, rather than true retention, - that I would resist being told by buyers they 'expect' not to have any problems ever - if that's what is happening ?

I might be a bit more cautious - if all the above isn't cautious enough ! - were the pup to have retained one or both testicles, and then had to be operated on to bring them down. (Dogs left with one can still be fertile).

It is likely that not every puppy in litters produced by a pair of animals carrying the genetics will be affected. So it is a chance I'd be willing to take IF I thought that this was otherwise a good, productive mating (ie not just for money). Like BE, I would simply expect that all lines are possibly carrying for it, and that it is therefore a matter of chance. The perfect litter has not yet been born.






 


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