Bicolor? - Page 2

For myself; maybe this is where on another thread someone was saying that more markings should be on the paperwork, I think for/under "color" box for registering, or as identifying marks? Can't remember.

Now for my dogs, they are "sables" on their paperwork  but for the box "color" there is also a list and one on the list is Bi-color. Does it hurt saying one and not the other?

All my dogs, (3), have the pencil marks on their toes, black on their front ? forearms, black on the back of their legs.  My Czech female has a "black dot" between her 2nd and 3rd toe, not counting dew claw. On all four feet.  

definetly b/t

 To the OP: where are her papers from? 

FYI to everyone...........Germany has no designation for bicolor. 

So even if a dog is homozygous for bi-color (does not carry black) it will still have the black markings on it's toes and legs?  I know with sables this usually indicates it is a black carrier.

Also, this dog must not be a true bi-color?? http://www.schraderhausk9.com/farox.htm  Not pointing fingers or trying to start anything, just clearifying for my knowledge.

 Would help to see Farox's feet/backs of legs. It's hard to tell if it's a reflection or if he has light fur behind his ears. 

Once again, thanks to everyone for their input!!!! According to the information, I suppose my girl is a black and tan! I would like to say that I did read the previous posts regarding this topic prior to posting this thread, but I was just clarifying the information i had read! My papers are from the USA. I was mistaken, when I pulled the pedigree to clarify, my girls mother is reg as blk/tan. I guess I was confused b/c the breeder has the dam on his website as a bicolor!!!!! I assumed my papers were the same....and as usual...we ALL know what happens when one ASSumes!!!!!

Eichenluft, I tried to apologize for this topic in my first post....I know this subject is exhausted! Thanks for your expertise...I did read the previous threads on this subject....great material!!!!!

Sables with penciling on toes are not bicolor either ;) - they are sables with toemarks -

Farox is not a bicolor.  GENETICALLY he is a very dark black/tan.  He does not have tarheels, and I assume he does not have toemarks either (can't see the toes in the pictures).  He also has shadings around the eyes and behind the ears.  If he were bicolor he would only have distinct eyebrows, cheek spots (if any) and nothing behind or aroudn the ears.

Many dogs colored like him are called bicolor - but they are not and genetically they are not, they will produce black/tan while bicolors will not.

molly

She is a very dark black and tan,fairly close to what many call a bi-color

Jen's right, the germans don't acknowledge it, nor do the slovaks or czechs. Because it's a designated AKC color, the U.S has adopted the term, and since AKC hasn't bothered with any official definition that I could find, our self appointed expert eichenluft has decided to define it herself.
 
So basically, she can say bicolor “is” whatever she decides it should be, and none will be the wiser. I can't even think of another phenotype of this (or another species) that has so many conditional descriptions attatched to it!  In effect, she has discounted 80 to 90% of what we'd "mistake" for bicolor, but nevertheless would reproduce it's color.

The most likely truth is, that it's result of the interaction of at least two competing genes controlling the overall expression...

Agouti (A) alleles and MC1R (E) alleles each create chemicals that compete with each other to regulate pigment function in hair follicle melanocytes:

• alleles of the Melanocortin-1 receptor (MC1R) gene code for variations of Melanocyte Stimulating Hormone (MSH) which regulate eumelanin (brown/black) pigment production in hair melanocytes, and
• alleles of the Agouti (A) gene code for variations of Agouti Signal Peptides (ASIP) which regulate the density, distribution pattern and exact color palette of eumelanin (brown/black) and phaeomelanin (yellow/red) pigment that melanocytes then inject into hair fiber.

The regulatory competition between each variation of ASIP and MSH is the mechanism that forms German Shepherd coat colorations ranging from the classic German Shepherd sable coat colors all the way to a solid black coat color.

bicolor will produce bicolor or black (if the dog is not a bicolor/bicolor) but does not carry black/tan recessive, therefore cannot produce black/tan dog (unless bred to a black/tan dog or one with recessive black/tan).  For instance, breeding a bicolor to a bicolor or to a black, or to a sable with black or bicolor recessive, will not produce black/tan.  Black/tan (whether you claim it to be a bicolor or not) will produce black/tan or bicolor depending on the recessives the dog carries.

Bicolor is what I say it is - nothing mysterious about it - except when people simply don't know what they are talking about of course.

molly