Where did the US GSD go wrong? - Page 6

Did you want to send a deposit for the white one, Charlie? I think he will make a downright fine Schutzhund prospect, his mother bites everyone she can and really hangs on for dear life. Last week it took 3 of us to get her off the mailman; now we pick up our mail at the postoffice. He looks a lot like her, that means he'll be a good strong biter too, doesn't it?

Yeah, I guess it does at that...lol. Ok, Im going to bed, no doubt to have black and white nightmares......Thanks buddy, hope you sleep well also I'll get that dep out to you first thing in the morning........

Nightie night, Charlie.

What I do not get is this blind faith following to Capt. Max. He created a nice breed but what have we done with it? Have we succeeded or failed? Now Ivory says if we follow the breed standard down to the letter everything would be great. But realistically the Europeans have been doing that for the past 50 generations or so. What we still have are a multitude of problems even in the strictest lines. Things really fell apart when the GSD seen hit the US. So it has only taken 50 generations to make dogs that we have to x-ray to breed. This is what happens when you design a breeding program to an artificial design, lets call it a breed standard. It is also proof of what line breeding creates when simultaneously removing genetic diversity. Now I know Ivy thinks the standard is just this side of the gospel, perhaps it is a substitute for thinking on his own, as is evidence of his juvenile jabs at others here, but other breeds that are thousands of years old do not have these severe problems. Why? Because they do not eliminate the naturally occurring genetic diversity in their lines. White Coated Shepherds, gospel aside, is there any evidence that they perform the function of a GSD any different? Is the white coat associated with bad conformation, bad disposition, poor drives? If the answer is no, then they are a warehouse of badly needed genetic diversity. Ask the same questions about the Coated Shepherd, show line folks ask the question about the working lines, and vice versa. In my humble opinion we must put aside our prejudices, narrow-mindedness and "clicks." To fix the breed everything must go back in the pot. Show lines must be breed to working lines to get the drive back. Working lines must be breed to show lines to get the conformation back. Otherwise we will continue producing these clones with a continuing degradation of the genes we are working with or maybe we can start culling 90% of the pups and see if that works.

Maxi, You seem to grasp nothing when it comes to the breed.Continue on your blind journey.You ask have we succeeded or failed? The answer is in the very 1st post of this thread(by you).We have failed.You should be very proud of yourself.What Ivory is saying is if you follow the breed standard,blindly or otherwise,and have people with your ethics or lack therof stop their stupid antics when it comes to breeding we might have a chance of at least salvaging what is left of the breed.What you saw on TV and bitched about is a DIRECT result of people like you.Congrats on a job well done.Stop wasting my time with your stupid posts,it is time unwisely spent,you could be trimming your long coat's ears,Oh that's right it helps his hearing,kind of like a mouse under the snow..Give me a freaking break........

Oh, I love hyenas! Aren’t they adorable? However I did not say that GSD should take after them, or anything of that sort. I gave them as an example of sloping/arched back in the nature. If they came to be built like this through the evolution, then there is something in such structure, ah? GSD doesn’t come with “tiny back legs”! They should have legs strong and well muscled! Maxislooking, you make no sense, sorry. There is a lot of studying for you to do. Try to research where white shepherds and long coats came from on genetic level, and in the breed as a whole before you make such statements as “To fix the breed everything must go back in the pot.” Here is a quote from the standard: “BODY A smooth top line beginning from the back of the neck and continuing in a straight line over a well developed wither and SLOPING SLIGHTLY toward the croup – without any visible disturbance. The back is firm, strong, and well muscled. The loin is broad, well developed, and well muscled. The croup must be long and slightly angled (about 23° to the horizontal), without any disturbance to the topline – it mast continue toward the beginning of the tail.” Please notice that the croup must be slightly angled to the HORIZONTAL, and not to the lion. If you don’t know what I am talking about, you need to ask someone who knows how to judge GSDs to explain it to you with a picture, as it is difficult to do in just words.

Makosh, Thanks for the information regarding the SV standard. Sorry, but I still do not see that an arch is desirable. What am I missing? Also, could you please post the names of those dogs you talked about, the ones with the correct toplines. I can't seem to relate what I see on photos with the standard description. Wouldn't a "smooth topline", "continuing in a straight line" and "without any visible disturbance" indicate no arch? I don't see that any sort of "hinge" is called for either. Thanks.

VA8 Max della Loggia dei Mercanti VA 1 Yasko vom Farbenspiel "Without any visible disturbance" means there are no bones visibly sticking out. If you look at a cow, for example, you can see pelvic bones very distinctively in her topline. It should not be the case with a GSD. That is, if you see those bones, then a dog has a sloping croup, which is undesirable. But "without any visible disturbance" does not mean strait! If you read it carefully, the top line starts as a straight line, and than “slopes slightly toward the croup.”

Add VA Keven v Murrtal, VA Ghandi v Arlette. The top winners all have the slight bend over the back. And, they have Shutzhund titles and show as well. Mostly piling up show points the VA dogs? I just feel a straight back if too American looking, I like the European dogs to look like the top dogs do. The whiters is steeper on some also that are really good, as well as good firmness of pasterns, strong straight fronts, and good lay of the croup, good angulation of front and rear as well. You get this all right and the dog steps very prounced and has a roomy powerful gait in the ring.

I'd have never interpreted "no visible disturbance" in that way, Makosh. Thanks for your prospective on that. I'll take the time to look at those dogs you and the wildthang have listed. Obviously one of us is not looking at the most current version of the SV standard. The one I have was revised June 1997, is your more recent? The edition revised June 1997 reads: "The over-line proceeds from the neck, continuing over the high, long withers and over the straight back through the slightly sloping croup without abrupt change." (Nothing about a visible disturbance or any indication that the topline should have an arch as far as I can see.) That's not what you have quoted. Which is correct, the version I have or yours? Are there more than one official SV standards of the breed?