some thoughts on inherited/genetic character vs. environmental trained - Page 4

Valk I wrote late at night .. I intended to write a dog's confidence can be increased and decreased** , meaning that is changeable , and confidence can influenced , as opposes to genetic traits that are not changeable. I think you read enough of my posts to understand my meaning about how the two differ . Yet again even though I intended to write " decreased"  , I have seen dogs whose confidence has been destroyed , not all dogs , but some. Also , anyone that has trained dogs , especially in sport , knows how fast you can ruin a dog , keep that dog from reaching it's full potential simply because either the handler , the helper/decoy or both have royally screwed up the teaching and that dog ! You mean to say that you have never seen a dog ruined , just  plum ruined ? BTW , you can ruin some dogs easily , yes easily , by defensing those dogs before they are ready for that  pressure , type of   threatening/combative  interaction . Now maybe years ago , maybe with border patrol dogs , maybe with the dogs that I had the end of the 60' and 70's this was never an issue , maybe some lineagescurrently bred for LE this is not an issue . However , I am saying thatcurrent day ,   with some dogs fo certain temperament and make up ,  it could be an issue . And my feeling is that .. again my feeling , that is the reason why there is so much pissing and moaning about the GS and it's genetics on this forum .. How every GS must be Rambo and the failure to accept the GS as having a whole gradeint of genetic traits .. The fact of the matter is with some lineages of GS , yes, it easy to affect their confidence for the better or the worse , and it happens every day . There have been questions , ? a thread even , asking  " how do you build confidence in the dog " .

     I give you a good example of how bad a dog's connfidence can be affected : This last fall an aquiantance of mine gave me a call .  Te dog was for almost free so she just went ahead and got the dog . She wanted to get a GS because her older GS was on is last leg. They adopted a GS female- I got a call for help . The behavior , I found out , that the dog exhibited came about because that dog spent it's entire life in a kennel . The breeder told her that the dog would be fine .. IMOP , The damage was done .. the dog never learned how to cope in the real world , and that resulted in such insecurity and such a lack of confidence in this dog- I could say that the dog's confidence was utterly destroyed . Does anyone think that a dog never learning how to cope due to living in a kennel it's whole life , will so easily gain it's confidence back 100% ?

          Hund .. what you write has merit ... and I will add a knowledgeable person can do behavioral modification and it's possible to help improve the lives of smany shelter dogs . Yes many can do well in life , as you int out , I agree with you . But , the big but is : it depends on the dog [ but not on it's attributes , but based on it's innate temperament and genetics ]

   Valk .. I just want to add . I also never ever learned how to evaluate the dog's temperament and genetics from any books . My mentor and  also some of my SV German friends taught me how to do this  . They observed [ tested]  me such that they knew , whether or not  , I knew , what I  was suposed to  do , could  do ,   in order to evaluate a dog. They showed me and and evaluated me in stripping the environent / learning   away from the genetics in reference to   accessing  the dog's temperamnet.  Althoug there is ' more than one way to skin a cat'  ., I don't say that what I do is the only way . However , the only way to learn this approachthat I do  in evaluating temperament , is  literally ' by doing it ', you cannot learn this by reading . And doing it with many , many   dogs... 

Hmmmm, so where humans treating dogs badly is the factor, explain why many dogs when rescued out of awful situations imposed on them by humans are not a bit resentful of all humans. True that many do try to hide from humans for a while, until they come to realise the bad situation has stopped (and depending on the individual dogs recovery abilities that will vary) but they do not all do so. Some come straight into rescues with their confidence and faith in (new) humans undiminished. Not necessarily subservient & submissive types.

Genetics are funny, aren't they? 

Also, Germany has a kennel culture. One of my females came out of kennel where dogs were hauled from the kennel to the club and back to the kennel. She had zero environmental issues and no issues with coping either. I've also seen rescues come out of situations like this that have never seen the outside world and haven't had any issues with coping. With all that Genetics go absolutely over the Environment but that doesn't mean that dogs shouldn't be exposed or don't need to be exposed. You absolutely need to see what you've got in order to expose the cracks.

 

...and the personality of the pups start to develop at approx. 4 weeks of age. So by week 5 or 6 I observe  the dynamics being expressed by the puppies with the make up of the sire and the dam in my mind. For if the sire and the dam do not have certain genetic graits then right from that point , then I know the pups will not becasue  the parents can only give what they have to give. That is a bramoeter tomhwat I may be thinking about. At age 6 or 7 weeks I have a good guestimation about the puppies and most definately by age 7-8 weeks.

Centurion, are/were you ever surprised by pups you bred displaying genetic traits not noticeable in the parents, but maybe from more distant ancestors?

[Centurion] I can get insight to the pup having them at about 7.5 , 8 or 10 weeks of age .However , other attributes I see with the onset of maturity . For example , I would not have a pup or very young dog "defense" - I just wouldn't want the dog to exhbit courage until it was mentally , emotionally , and physically mature to . Again for 'courage ',  I would wait until a bit of maturity to determine if the dog has courage .

For anyone, is there a general age range for 'a bit of maturity' to determine presence of courage?  

 

GK The way I approach this is not about the age range ,per se , but I feel that is better to approach this " by having the dog tell you that it is ready " . That is the key and that is the art of dog training -Every dog is different and IMOp unique .... The biggest mistake I see in teaching dogs is : doing to much to fast . Also there are a number of factors that I also take into consideration . One is the avenue that you want the dog to perform in . For example , I once had a dog ready and capable to do many of the police K9 dsciplines required at 12 months old . He did a demo when the local towns had a fund raiser for police K9 vests. The haed of the police K9 Academy was present along with the other officers... they marvelled at this dog , the Germans that visited me wanted this dog - in my Region in ther USA , the K9 Academy doesn't even consider a candidate before 1.5 years old .

How can I liken this : Last month I was teaching a person how to teach her dog an IPG fuss . So we started the dog learning fuss . No , not a movement but what a fuss/heel . And I aked her why is it termed 'heel' and I answered: " because that is where the dog should be no matter wha". So.. I did not allow her to take 1 step with that dog until the dog learned to heel , that is to be at her heel , the dog's shoulder to her knee . In ecaxt , absolite , no matter where the dog is relative to her with attention . Attention to her no matter what had been already taught to the dog when it was 10 weeks old . The dog was taught to give her attention if she stays still or if she moves , and /or if the dog moves. So when the dog was in heel with attention , as she was even to start moving, 1/2 of the pace of her foot, the dog was still in attention and the attention continued to the complete 1 foot straight ahead . When the dog mastered 1 foot then I allowed her to heel With attention 2 feet. Ditto for the turns .. the dog masterd a turn to the left , 1 foot . that is it. When the dog masterd 1 foot straight and My point : watch what the dog does , [ or does not fo ]and the dog will tell you qwhennit is ready , magure enough , to go to another level in interacting woith the dog. GK , that is my approach that I share with you , for whatever it is worth , or not worth .. Our dogs are ALWAYS talking to us .... and they have all the answers to the questions we ask it . In the question you asked , in that this case : "? are you ready to ____ ? " . Remember that if you will .

Yes BE I too have also seen that; heck, have lived with that !

valk said "i been taught to simplify approach to dog's evaluation in black or white - fit or not, strong or weak. if dog fit - take into work. if not - don't waste time and effort, simply write off and move to next."

IMO, nothing can be put any more simple and true than this. I also think BE was saying very close, maybe in different words and experience.

the simple part to me is what valk said can be applied to any venue involving any task for a dog, of any breed, show, hunt, retrieve, rescue, service, whatever. if dog is good for that task, go forward. if not, get one that is. requires ability to recognize traits for task.

most the books, experts make money trying to tell us "how to turn a sow's ear into a silk purse"

and maybe I've missed some things, but I'm guess I'm much better suited to short, straight, direct to the point experience.

 

jmo,

Rik

GK 1 .... Another way to express what I am saying : when I want to evaluate maturity in a dog or a person .. What I am also trying to say is : give the dog a task , meaning a chance to accomplish something. In that sense thedog takes on responsibility . Through the actions of the dog , what the dog accomplishes or what it does not , we can determine to what degree and level the dog is at in regards to being mature . The same is applicable in trying to evaluate puppies too . For example, if I want a dog for any scent work .. even a pup at 8 weeks old. I give them a task and see what the pups says to me. I may drag a marrow bone on the ground. Upwind and then maybe downwind with obstacles , problems the pup will have to navigate . So , I will look to see if the dog uses it's nose and how. I will look to see if the dog has perserverence or easily gives up . I want to see if the pup will navigate the dragged scent to " the source " . I will observe what the dog does when it comes to the bone.. Again , the dog always is saying something to me. It will tell me in the tasks that it accomplishes if it has reached the maturity level that it has to have in order to move on to bigger and better things . Ditto for protection endeavors ,

Centurian, regarding your latest post, what do you think about this statement from earlier post?  Not necessarily right or wrong, but implications..

”i been taught to simplify approach to dog's evaluation in black or white - fit or not, strong or weak. if dog fit - take into work. if not - don't waste time and effort, simply write off and move to next."

hey cent, can you post 1 pic of a dog you owned.

like they say 1 pic worth a 1000 words that I'm not going to read.

and I'm very open, to me a successful dog can be PP, LE/Mil, service, fly ball, dock diving, S/L any country, anything that an owner succeeds in getting the dog out of the back yard.

I'm definitely not hard core and appreciate even maybe/most the shelter rescue people/dogs.

but I do like to see the dog that validates whatever opinion is being expressed as expert, and especially being to used to talk down to other experience.

thanks,
Rik