Breeding Tervuren and Malinois: CKC and AKC - Page 1

I have a complicated question that isn't just technical. I have an AKC registered belgian malinois female. She is a tervuren in terms of coat type. Her parents are both Dutch imports, now registered with the AKC as malinois. I plan to breed her with a CKC registered tervuren. He is out of CKC registered malinois. I would prefer to register the pups as tervuren, but realize that is probably not possible per AKC rules.

My questions: Can the stud dog, since he is out of CKC malinois, be registered as AKC malinois in the US? Thus, the pups would be registered as AKC malinois.

Can I register my female as a CKC tervuren? In this case, the pups could be registered as CKC tervuren.

If both of the above are possible, could I dual-register the pups as CKC tervuren and AKC malinois?

Is there any way I can register the pups as AKC tervuren?

Both sire and dam come from great working lines. I have no interest in showing dogs- in fact the tervuren here simply means a longer coat type, the genetics behind both sire and dam are strong working-line malinois. But I would like to register the pups with AKC or CKC as tervuren.

Does anyone have insight on this? I'm going to do my research on both breed registries and ask those in the know, but it would be great if someone has experience with this and can fill me in.

To be clear, sire and dam are objectively "tervuren" coat types by European standards, and would be registered as "tervuren" in Europe, no question.

All I know is that several years I imported a Tervuren that was FCI registered. Unknowingly I bought her without noticing her sire was a mali and dam was a Terv, so due to this the AKC refused to register this imported female. I'm not sure if when you're referring to CKC in your post, are you meaning "Continental Kennel Club"  or the "Canadian Kennel Club"?  It makes a big difference between the two. AKC is very strict and they won't register pups from different breed parents.

I don´t know how it works in AKC but under FCI we register dogs according to their type and color of coat.If she has long coat,she is a tervueren so I would pre-register her as a tervueren.Pups from her litter would be registered according to their coat - long coat as tervuerens,short coat malis.You should be able to see which one is going to have long or short coat when they are 3 weeks old.

In the US the 4 belgian types of sheep dog are separatedd into 4 different breeds. Hence it is not allowed to cross breed the different types. Which is completely stupid because in europe they are 1 breed and 4 different coat types. So if you trying to register the dog as a Terv and she is form Mail parents your basically screwed. Because they should reject her due to her coat type. I also do not think you cna register the pups as two different "Breeds" in the us/canada. Not gonna happen.
FCI has totally different rules then North American kennel clubs AKC/UKC?CKC
Good luck
Fry
 

It´s really bad.It´s one breed with 4 varieties according to the type and color of coat.They come from the same ancestors so it sometimes happens that can get some tervueren puppies from two malis or a gronendael from two tervuerens.If it happens in a litter,the puppies are then registered as malinois, tervueren or gronendael according to their color and length of coat.That´s how it works under FCI rules.

I have a complicated question that isn't just technical. I have an AKC registered belgian malinois female. She is a tervuren in terms of coat type. Her parents are both Dutch imports, now registered with the AKC as malinois. I plan to breed her with a CKC registered tervuren. He is out of CKC registered malinois. I would prefer to register the pups as tervuren, but realize that is probably not possible per AKC rules.

I will start by saying verify all this with AKC/CKC, but I'm 99.9% sure what I say is going to be accurate based on my dealings with each of them.

My questions: Can the stud dog, since he is out of CKC malinois, be registered as AKC malinois in the US? Thus, the pups would be registered as AKC malinois.

If the owner in Canada was willing to go back to the CKC and get the dog's registration changed to Belgian Shepherd - Malinois, then he could be AKC registered as a Malinois.  This might be possible if he's a typical Terv out of Malinois with just a little more coat and fringing.  A good stripping of undercoat and a haircut, enough for photos showing him to be short haired, might be enough to change the variety on his CKC registration.  It's not unusual for people to think a pup is a Terv or Mal at 8 weeks, register it as such, then find out as it matures they were wrong. 

Can I register my female as a CKC tervuren? In this case, the pups could be registered as CKC tervuren.

Last time I asked CKC allowed inter-variety breeding, and registered  "as they fall".  I don't believe you would even need to register her as a CKC Terv, I believe you can register her as a CKC Malinois and still do the breeding.  Since this is technically a Terv x Terv breeding, which will produce only Tervs, AKC would not allow any of the pups into their studbook because one parent is an AKC Malinois and the offspring would be CKC Tervuren.  However, the offspring could be bred using the CKC papers and their offspring would be accepted by AKC.  Oh, and the litter would have to be whelped in Canada.  Both AKC and CKC require a litter to be registered in the country it was whelped in.  If you registered the pups as CKC Malinois then AKC might accept the Malinois pups for registration, you would have to double check.

If both of the above are possible, could I dual-register the pups as CKC tervuren and AKC malinois?

No.  AKC is not going to allow into their studbook any pups from a "different breed" than the AKC parent of the pup.  Because this has created such a mess they did remove the 3 generation rule a number of years ago though, so now if a Terv is born from two Malinois in another country it can be imported to the US and registered as a Terv with AKC.  Or if a Terv x Mal breeding is done in another country the offspring will be accepted by AKC as what they are.  It can get dicey though if one of the parents is imported later, ie a Terv x Mal breeding done, a Mal imported and AKC registered, then the Terv parent imported.  Sometimes AKC has taken the parent, sometimes they haven't, and sometimes they have refused to take any subsequent Mal offspring from that parent.

Is there any way I can register the pups as AKC tervuren?

No, not the pups.  However, the grandpups could be brought back into AKC as Tervs.

Both sire and dam come from great working lines. I have no interest in showing dogs- in fact the tervuren here simply means a longer coat type, the genetics behind both sire and dam are strong working-line malinois. But I would like to register the pups with AKC or CKC as tervuren.

CKC is your best bet since I believe they allow IV breedings.  Double check though, since I'm in the US I don't stay up on their rules.  Some FCI countries allow it, others do not.

One important point in all of this is where the litter is whelped.  Both AKC and CKC allow people who don't live in their country to register dogs with them for competition purposes.  I had a US pup person with CKC registration on their dog so they could go compete in Canada.  But each registry will only register a litter if it's born in their country.
 

Thanks for your detailed reply malndobe. It sounds like perhaps my best option if I go with this stud is to whelp the pups in Canada and register them as CKC tervuren.

I'll have to dig into the CKC guidelines, but from the sound of it AKC is a no-go.

There are certainly stud dogs in the US that are long-coat malinois, but there are a few specific reasons I really like this stud for my female.

I believe that you could apply for UKC registration for both parents and then register the pups with UKC also. Might be worth checking on?