Need help with dangerous situation - Page 9

This thread wasn't talking about people invading the fenced yard a dog resides in. It talked about an open yard, apparently frequented by pedestrians. The band wagon was in reference to agreeing that dogs have no ability to tell a threat from a non-threat. I figured you are more keyed in to the nature of a sound dog than that. As for "harp in" , I'm not the AC, not my business if you have a fence or not. Your dogs are your own responsibility, as mine are my responsibility. I don't put my dogs in jeopardy.

The situation of  a dog biting an intruder who is invading dog's fenced yard is not he same scenario as a dog recognizing a threat from non threat while the dog is in public. But that is not what this thread is about....different scenario. And I NEVER SAID THAT BEING TERRITORIAL IS NOT A TRUE GERMAN SHEPHERD. Quite the opposite. 

I guess I'll just have to deal with you disagreeing with my post....life goes on.....

Susie, so will my dogs, unsupervised, nail any stranger "trying" to come onto my property. That in itself will take the person out of the non-threatening status. 

Supervised, my dogs will nail any person who is a threat to my or their safety. 

That implies my dogs know a threat from a non threat.

Knowing WHEN to bite is mandatory for any breed which will bite when defending what is theirs.

Susie, vk 4gsd asked if the op had a fence on the first page. I and others  recommened they put the dogs behind a fense pages ago. Prager came on here pages later and reiterated what had already been suggested. Good that he agrees with  the rest for a solution. At least that much came out of this.

I don´t think that there is a difference for the dogs in question between a "real" fence and the electric fence, they will be pretty aware of the "border" - but pedestrians and other dogs don´t know about this "invisible border" - that´s why this kind of fence is that dangerous.

" That implies my dogs know a threat from a non threat. " - No, that implies your dogs are well trained

Oh, I thought it meant they have discernment. ;-) lol

I agree that a radio signal fence like invisible fence is not a solution to the o ps problem.

Hi Everyone:  OP here.  First off, thanks for all of your advice.  In a perfect world my post would not have generated some of the friction between various posters but all of the input is appreciated nonetheless. I am really grateful that people take the time to share their knowledge and suggestions with a complete stranger simply out of kindness and concern and love of animals, specifically Mals .....One of the great things about the internet. 

A few posters suggested I have not been back either due to the problem being fixed or because of some the "differing" opinions and comments---Neither is the case.    I have not been back on the thread due to time constraints--keeping the dogs separate and totally supervised is pretty much another job!  I used to simply let them out to do their business and a few minutes later one or both would be back in.  Now I have a stop gap and complete supervision.  It's time consuming.  The good news is the physical fence in the back yard should be up in two weeks.  That should help part of the problem.  I look at this as a long process that will take lots of time and effort and educated action. I hope I am up to it but there are moments I have my doubts.  Truth be told if I thought I had a great home for my Mal I would seriously consider it.  It would have to be someone who wants a 15 month old 60 pound female who would NOT use electric or prong collars or simply want a mal for re-sale.  She would also not be suited for someone needing a high drive working line.  Believe me, though, as far as intelligence, athleticism, grace, strength, loyalty and beauty she is ALL malinois.  As my trainer says the main distinction is that "with most Mals you need to find their off button and with this one you have to activate her on one."  She'll play tug and hop walls and catch a frisbee and retrieve the dock toy from the pool--It's just that unlike my BC with the frisbee she quickly grows tired of it.  She basically just likes to hang with my family and go on long hikes and sleep at my daughter's feet at night.   If there are any readers out there who may have an interest send me a message.  It would break my heart but it is something I would consider after some careful screening.  She may not fit with her current setting but she truly is the greatest and most beautiful dog I've ever had.  I can post pics if anyone likes

One poster kind of scoffed at my use of "trainers, gadgets, behaviorists," etc.  But hey I have a problem that needs fixing and these people/items may be part of the solution.  I read where one poster said to put my mal down but that is not an option.  I may not deserve the dog but the dog does not deserve to die.  She is a beautiful smart athletic sweet girl.  The bottom line is because of my inexperience I missed some signs and let the BC and the Mal down. They should not have been in the yard alone after the Border Collie had been hurt and started showing changes.   They really are amazing animals.  Other than in the yard they are great with all people--small children, my two cats, strangers etc. My daughters had friends at the house this weekend.  I had zero doubt that either dog would in any way harm them---Of course I didn't put them in a situation to find that out but I could tell she was fine with all of the activity in the house and yard.  I could walk either anywhere and nothing would phase them---They couldn't be more socialized.

I did meet with the behaviorist.  She diagnosed the dogs with "Fear based aggression towards unfamiliar people and territorial aggression."  I kind of knew that already!  But she did draw up a program and it pretty much mimicked what Prager had written--Manage, control, diffuse.  She also concurred with Offdalip's insistence about keeping them separate.  (Western Rider is right---these forums work great when people stay on topic and it is usually a hybrid of suggestions and techniques)  Basically neither is outside unsupervised and they are only allowed in back yard--never front (fence in back in two weeks!  Yahoo!) She had me cover all the front windows and doors so they can't see out, And when they start going ape shit when the mailman, ups driver shows up, doorbell rings, etc I should remove them from situation, tell'em they're off duty and click and treat.  I also take them on sniff walks and still play frisbee and have a trainer come to the house twice a week.  They know place, sit,  stay, lay down etc. but that and their recall kind of goes out the window when the truck pulls up.  She also has me have someone ring the doorbell and then throw food in the door to change their association.  I'm sure some here will have a laugh at that but I paid $400 for a highly recommended expert and I'm going with the program.  She also has me teaching them with a gentle leader as well as a pheromone collar and anxitane. 

The only thing I am absolutely disregarding is the discontinuation of the electric fence altogether.  (She says this causes additional stress)  They never challenge the fence or even get to the point where it beeps.  I like having that in place as an extra precaution when I am out with them.  And a physical fence around the entire front and back would cost more than a house. 

That's what's up.  Please chime in if there are any further thoughts or suggestions.  I'm guessing this is a six to eight month process but we will see! 

So, no prong or e-collar but a "gentle" leader that uses torque to wrench a dog's neck is fine; huh?  You may just as well have set your $400.00 on fire.

I do wonder is any of these "behaviorists" who come up with these ideas of being "gentle" on a dog has ever actually seen one hit the end of the leash in a panic or while excited or going after something...while wearing a gentle leader?

That thought crossed my mind as well.  But I love the dog and consulting with someone my vet recommended seemed to be worth a shot.  And if in the coming months there is a marked improvement then it will have been the best money I've ever spent.  In case anyone is interested the Doctors' names are Dr. Horwitz and Dr. Pike.  She wrote a book called "Decoding Your Dog" if you have any interest.   Dr Pike is in the army and takes care of the dogs, mostly Mals, at our local Air Force base.   Regarding the leader--I've had it on her and the torque seems minimal---no real "wrenching" to speak of.  And I am not saying there is no place for e-collar or prong---Just not in this instance.  It's just a personal choice.

"Regarding the leader--I've had it on her and the torque seems minimal---no real "wrenching" to speak of."

You are clearly not familiar with how the device works but good luck.  Hope it all works out!