Are Titles Necessary Before Breeding? - Page 10

spook, But you have to admit that your "Honest" assesment of our dogs has no Validity to it at all. You have not seen them, You have not seen them work, You have not seen the puppies I have put out that are on the sch field and are in K-9 Training, Make the trip to Oregon and I'll take the day off just to cart you from one end of Oregon to the other to show you these dogs. It's true, I'm new It's true, I have not "purchased" Titles But it is not true that I am simply breeding to breed. I do have goals in mind, I do have plans, But plans take time. Simple as that ! My goal, to buy a 160 Acres of ground, build a nice training field, tracking grounds, Nice Barn for bitches with pups old enough to be out of the house, a really big house with spare rooms for bitches in whelp, and big enough I can have all the dogs in the house at once if they so choose. I would like to be able to provide Great K-9 partners who have the "SOLID" temperament that is needed for K-9 work to agency's that might not be able to afford a 5,000.00 dog. I co-Own many of our "working" dogs, So that it keeps the cost out of the picture for these agency's. I could go on and on but it's been done before you guys, I'm sure you've read it in the past. Spook, Pay who you want for what you want, It is your choice to do so, I don't talk people into one of our dogs if that's what you think, I even tell them if I don't have the right kind of dog for you, I'll help you find a breeder (if I can) who can find you the right dog. Do you think I just lie to people all day and try to get them to buy the "wrong" dog ? Why would I do that, It would make no sense for me to do that, I had a dog come back the other day, through no fault of mine or the owner, She is in the middle of a nasty divorce and the dog became an issue with the X, so she returned him, what did I do, I offered her a pup in the future, told her when she gets her life strait and is absolutely ready to contact me and I will hand her a pup. She made an investment and I think it's awful timing has made things tough for her, But I beleive she paid for a service and should be provided with that service, There is nothing in my contracts that say I have to give her another pup, there is nothing wrong with this dog, Just bad timing on her part. I think I do have Ethics, Heart, Honesty, and Integrity. I don't think I have the best dogs in the world, but I do beleive that our dogs posess temperaments that are very sought after. I do beleive in providing others with the special blessing of a well (not best) bred GSD from a breeder with exceptional Integrity. I beleive that I provide that. In all honesty I could care less what anyone other than our purchasers have to say about our dogs, so long as I am selling Healthy, dogs of sound temperament, and ability for what they seek, Then I feel I am doing something right.

"I am sure the true ethical breeeders that are out there are not doing it for the money they do it because they love the breed and want to improve for the betterment of the breed" (jettasmom) So, how does that relate to having titles before breeding, ie. is it Ok to make $ on a litter out of titled parents as opposed to making money on a litter out of untitled parents? Somehow this thread turned into the topic of money. And while we're on the topic, what do you all think about "test breedings" to see what a dog produces before actually titling it? I bet some of the people in this topic have posted ads for litters. I wonder how many of them follow the standards they write about.

Okay, I have tried so hard to keep my mouth shut but here is my opinion. I just can't resist because some of you don't seem to be getting it! I think that titles are necessary for the beginning breeder and trainer because due to being a novice, you really have no idea what constitutes a good or great dog. Ideas change as you encounter, see and train good, bad and medium dogs. Yes, the system is not perfect, yes, some titles are bought, but it is at least a start. Echo, you could have the best dogs in the world but honestly you really don't know because you don't have enough experience in the sport or in law enforcement, search and rescue, etc.... We don't know your training directors or his/her experience as well. I can think of the lady down the street from me who got into breeding DDR dogs about eight years ago. She had never titled a dog and relied solely on what the person who sold the dog told her. He was a good dog, but definitely not a great dog and my helper, being the nice guy he is, didn't have the heart to tell her this dog she paid 10,000 for was not worth it. Now, 8 years later, she breeds much better dogs, and places them much better. My point is that for most of those 8 years, due to her inexperience, she advertised her dogs as being much different than they actually were, and many of my clients (I am a dog trainer) were disappointed at not getting sport quality dogs, or the pet people got dogs that were too much for them. Put in your dirt time of earning your titles and training your dogs before you breed them so that you actually know what you are breeding; faults and good points and all.

I have to say, there was a moment in time when I considered breeding my youngest competition dog before she was titled. Just to do a test litter, to see if she produced what I expect her to produce. I was very tempted. Let's see if she will pass on everything I think she will, before I go through all the training, trialing, and everything else. Obviously, medical testing and such showed her sound. However, I did get addicted to training and didn't want to take the time away from the long range plan to do the short range plan. I am very glad I decided to do the right thing, for us, which is to trial, title, conformation rating and all we need is the breed survey. Maybe if I had been able to find a stud that would compliment her and add to the working ability, I might have opted to breed her before all the requirements were met. I still believe in a GSD proving it is breed worthy before it is bred. I also think that if you meet all the criteria for breeding, and the dog is all you think it is, then others who you would want to purchase puppies will see what the dog truly is, and be banging your door down for puppies, when the time comes. I want puppy buyers to see my bitch work, be as excited about her as I am, and ask when and who she will be bred to, because they see what I see. If she truly produces what I expect she will, when the time comes, and someone who actively gives to the breed wants a pup, I would consider giving a pup away to the right person. The right pup in the right hands can do more for a breeding program than many might think.

LaPort, Changer, and DeesWolf, Excellent Posts all 3 of you !! Thank You for your contributions/thoughts. We are getting there, But unfortunately I am not in a financial position to be training as many dogs as I am training without having something come back in, A good enough reason to breed, NO of course not, But our training directors both have 40 + years in the sport one of them even on the USA Team at one time, So I trust that they're guidence is true to the breed. Anyway what comes back in from puppy sales, goes right back in and then sum, (pun intended) I am so far in the red I'm not sure I'll ever see black short of 10 years or so. And that's ok, I love my dogs, and still feel we are providing a service that is worth continueing. But wanted to say you all make valid points and yes your words are heard, I wish I was in a position to just train all day every day and get this all done, But I am not, Our club meets regularly once per week and through the summer twice per week. We don't have trials regularly there are only like 7 members that train consistently and most have 1 dog some have 2 and we have the most always 5 sometimes up to 8 in training. New members this last year consisted of one gal with 2 dobermans and our puppy buyers local buyers 4 pups in training. So we have contributed to the sport/club as well, :-) Anyway once again Thank You for your contributions and know that you have been heard and we continue with our education and adventure with these wonderful dogs !

In order to improve he breed or the line or the dog you must first know the genetic make up or foundation of what you are trying to improve.Improvement in certain areas implies that their is a lacking in that area.(temp,hips, secondary characteristics,angulation,croup,size,etc).No dog is perfect and the standard is the manuscript that we use to stay on course. Titles are not a primary consideration for improving the breed,IMO, because the vast majority of GS that are titled are so bottlenecked in genetics that they slant the breeding equation to continue to proliferate their faults/weaknesses.(temp/health) It is people that breed to titles and certifications thus not having a knowledge of the breed or line that has helped lead the shepherd to where it is today. The majority of poor tempered shepherds I have seen were not backyard breeding but from American/German showlines with titles and certification out the wahoo on their parents. Now I'm talking about primary requisites for BREEDING, which I think knowledge of dogs and the standard, and a committment to attain the best, without color, angulation, extreme hardness,gait,etc,being made a priority (UNLESS THEY ARE NEEDED). I think titles and certifications indicate the ability of the dog and trainer. But they are useless for breeding(and even detrimental sometimes)if they aren't accompanyed with INDEPTH knowledge of the lines.

Titles, shows, and breed surveys are all tools. They aid the breeder in judging the strengths and weaknesses of breeding stock. They are also helpful to the buyer of pups in evaluating the potential of a particular breeding. There are some who can accurately assess the temperament and working ability of a dog without going through training and formal trials. There are many more who BELIEVE that they are capable of assessing the qualifications of a dog. While all titles are not created equal, the lack of titles says to a buyer that the dogs are likely incapable and/or the breeder does not care about working ability and maintaining the international standard. Most breeders (including myself) should for the good of the breed and their own reputation take their breeding animals to the highest working title AND show rating of which they are capable BEFORE breeding. We should also take care to heed the advice of Koermeisters. We are paying for their services, not just the additional letters after the dogs name. Best Wishes, Jonah

Yellowrose, you brought back memeories of some very funny stories. For years I drove around town in a 57 chevy with my dogs,(that I had restored before I brought her home, my husb thought I was nuts!). I would be stopped at a light and men would yell at me, "does your Husband know what you have in that car?" "Lady, He is going to kill you"! To make matters even funnier, I got them to wear doggie sun glasses I found.

What will be the difference in the progeny of a dog after it is titled and shown; from before the same dog is titled and shown? I'm missing something in this reasoning. The United States of America had some really strong breeding programs and kennels in the 40s, 50s,60s,before the advent of the Lance of Franjo craze. Most of the military dogs for WW2, Korea, and Vietnam were American bred dogs. There were not sch trials in this country during this period but breeders such as Cosalta, Maur-Ray, Long-Worth, and many, many, more produced excellent dogs that worked.All of the seeing eye dogs were not imports, how did these breeders produce these results with out Titles, and in the 40s, 50s, 60s, x-rays on hips for the most part.Many many police dogs of that era were American bred!! How was this accomplished? The Lance of Franjo craze of breeding for fashion was the slide down the slope for top American breeders, not the lack of titles and certifications. Angulation and color has done more to take the GS out of working in fields like police/military/ seeing eye/etc. This is with the TOOLS(sch titles,certs,etc) in place and at the highest levels for the Black and Red dog. Breeding is about knowledge and genetics, and not fashion, fads, or titles. I do agree that titles help demonstrate the ability of a dog, which is useful in breeding but the lack of titles does not equate to lack of working ability. It does mean you have to do your "due diligence" to either see the dog or know the lines intimately.Of course if you don't do that anyway and breed to titles and certifications you can still end up with dogs that don't work or have poor health but boy are they titled. Lastly, I am titling two dogs rright now, as I think it develops their potential, but I would never breed them based on their titles but rather to dogs that compliment them genetically.

Gustav, Oh How refreshing it is to see that someone else "gets it" SchH3 + KKL1 = Absolutely Breedworthy..... Not in my opinion eighther. You can if you have to "Skate" a dog through a temperament test. Hell I've seen it done in 4-H, I've seen it done in an AKC Show where a GSD took a swipe at a judge when the judge approached and that dog was NOT asked to leave as it should have been fact is the dog was put up and won the class, POOR Temperament and all. It was not just the snap at the judge, this dog was anxious every time the judge passed, Obvious temperament issue and still the dog was "Judged" to be the first of the class on that day. Gustav raises some very valid questions, How did the USA produce these wonderful "WORKING" dogs without sch titles and KKLing ?? How is that possible ? If everyone back then thought as most do now "inside the box" How was this done ? I preffer to "think outside the box" and continue with education and continue with training, and continue with a sound breeding program. I too look for dogs that compliment "each other" Once again I received "High Praise" of our dogs temperaments, As some folks were looking at our dogs and puppies, They were bewildered that our dogs kept jumping into they're laps as we visited at my kitchen table, wagging tails, slobbering on they're faces with kisses, and outside in the yard among 8 GSD's all wanting attention and affection and all approaching with confidence, They were "shocked". They said they had visited some other kennel's and were "informed" by the other breeders that they must keep they're dogs seperate because they would "rip" each other apart if they were allowed to be together. This bewlders me. I have visited only a couple of kennel's where the breeder told me that they could not allow this or that dog out as it would likely attempt to bite us. That bewilders me. I am certainly NOT new to temperament testing or temperament issues and certainly NOT novice when it comes to "properly" evaluating a temperament. I work as a shelter manager, MY VERY SAFETY, Is completely dependant upon my correctly evaluating a dogs temperament within moments of arriving on a scene, Some of those dogs would have bitten me no doubt at all in my mind, while others who "appeared" aggressive were simply scared and were "talked down". I agree 100% with Gustav, Education, Education, Education !!!! Sound Education/Knowledge of the breed can make as successful of a breeding program possibly moreso than a breeding program made of nothing more than titles and certificates. Yes we will continue to work toward titles and KKL but they will never be my "END ALL" holy grail of to breed or not to breed.