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by FHTracker on 26 February 2010 - 20:02
GSDPACK,
The simple answer to your question is yes a dog can get frozen into prey. It's one of the many balancing acts involved in dog training.
Depending upon the dog, 22 months would still be considered towards the 'young' side of things, depending upon how his head in maturing in terms of bringing on the defensive pressure full bore.
At the same time, I hate to see that high whiney 'gimmie, gimmie, gimmie' bark be the only thing coming out of the dog.
The simple answer to your question is yes a dog can get frozen into prey. It's one of the many balancing acts involved in dog training.
Depending upon the dog, 22 months would still be considered towards the 'young' side of things, depending upon how his head in maturing in terms of bringing on the defensive pressure full bore.
At the same time, I hate to see that high whiney 'gimmie, gimmie, gimmie' bark be the only thing coming out of the dog.
by GSDPACK on 26 February 2010 - 20:02
FHTracked Thank you.
Lets leave the bull shit out and get back to training:
"I have been told by several well known trainers that table training is a measure of last resort1 It is thought to be on reason why dogs get pushed over the edge into fear biting! can it be a measure of last resort?"
Not for all trainers.. let me tell you this from my experience (commical but true) Three equally good trainers talk. one of them leaves and the two remaining once agree that the third one is an idiot.. I actually watched this to happen. To each their own. that is my idea.
So to the table trainig. I think that it is often used as the last resort. I know of people who train with Randy..they are top trainers, knowlegable people and some of them would not put their dogs on that table, some of them would. Depends on the dog.
I don't need to my dog will show all the drives if the helper knows how to bring them out on the ground. So will my female( she is actually one that will not need the table to bring out defence, she already is showing all the fight I can want from a year old female).
But there are dogs that are more into prey and they are not taking the trainig seriously, they just have a good all tug a war time. And this is OK, some people are happy with that. Some people even make the dog look great playing for the sleeve only. I can read a dog I recognize it! To me it is EMPTY. Pretty, but Empty. When you put a dog with this I want you ass bark, next to I want that sleeve bark..... HUGE difference.
Not every dog has to be put on a table, I think that the helper tried all sorts of things, Barb even said that they had to fix the sleeve happiness and the female probably did not respond to the pressure from a helper.
I have a police dog fell appart on a table.. hauled for his daddy.... I felt scared for the officer as I knew this dog needs to be taken off the streets. (the dog was in avoidance, the birds were so interresting) bad, bad, bad...
The answer: I have not seen table used on a dog unless it was needed. Just like any other technique.
Helps? My opinion, experience..
Lets leave the bull shit out and get back to training:
"I have been told by several well known trainers that table training is a measure of last resort1 It is thought to be on reason why dogs get pushed over the edge into fear biting! can it be a measure of last resort?"
Not for all trainers.. let me tell you this from my experience (commical but true) Three equally good trainers talk. one of them leaves and the two remaining once agree that the third one is an idiot.. I actually watched this to happen. To each their own. that is my idea.
So to the table trainig. I think that it is often used as the last resort. I know of people who train with Randy..they are top trainers, knowlegable people and some of them would not put their dogs on that table, some of them would. Depends on the dog.
I don't need to my dog will show all the drives if the helper knows how to bring them out on the ground. So will my female( she is actually one that will not need the table to bring out defence, she already is showing all the fight I can want from a year old female).
But there are dogs that are more into prey and they are not taking the trainig seriously, they just have a good all tug a war time. And this is OK, some people are happy with that. Some people even make the dog look great playing for the sleeve only. I can read a dog I recognize it! To me it is EMPTY. Pretty, but Empty. When you put a dog with this I want you ass bark, next to I want that sleeve bark..... HUGE difference.
Not every dog has to be put on a table, I think that the helper tried all sorts of things, Barb even said that they had to fix the sleeve happiness and the female probably did not respond to the pressure from a helper.
I have a police dog fell appart on a table.. hauled for his daddy.... I felt scared for the officer as I knew this dog needs to be taken off the streets. (the dog was in avoidance, the birds were so interresting) bad, bad, bad...
The answer: I have not seen table used on a dog unless it was needed. Just like any other technique.
Helps? My opinion, experience..
by Slamdunc on 26 February 2010 - 20:02
GSDPACK,
You wrote:
Could a dog be so "LOCKED" in prey that there is no way out? I have never really seen a dog that had so much potential to be so unwilling to actually fight.
Yes, I think so. I have a super female, SchH 3, IPO 2 she's 11 years old now. I could work that dog on any field, any decoy any time day or night and she always bit full. She is so confident that she has never seen any person as a threat, her goal in life is to kiss everyones face she meets like it or not. Super high prey drive dog. I had some decoys push her and she is unwavering, she will take all the pressure you can give her to get the sleeve. If the decoy drops the sleeve and agitates her defensively she will look at the decoy and bark at the sleeve. It doesn't matter what the decoy does I don't think she'd bite him for real. This female would "mount" the decoy while she was on a bite and hump his leg. But all she wants is that sleeve, completely equipment fixated. There was only one time when she was home with my wife alone and the fedex guy opened our front door and she "screamed" (Yoschy granddaughter) and went for him. My wife closed the door just in time. I have never seen her be aggressive any other time, and I didn't see that time.
Dogs that are locked in prey it can be very difficult to turn on defensively. We have some Police K9's, one in particular that is super high in prey drive, but he has proven himself on the street several times. He actually saved his handlers life in a gunfight. But give this dog a sleeve or your arm and he'll take the sleeve. The table training is stressfull for this dog. Lucky for us the bad guys don't wear burlap.
Raymond,
I answered your question on the other thread. Please do not ruin this thread and cause it to go down in flames. I'm hoping your bigger than that.
Jim
You wrote:
Could a dog be so "LOCKED" in prey that there is no way out? I have never really seen a dog that had so much potential to be so unwilling to actually fight.
Yes, I think so. I have a super female, SchH 3, IPO 2 she's 11 years old now. I could work that dog on any field, any decoy any time day or night and she always bit full. She is so confident that she has never seen any person as a threat, her goal in life is to kiss everyones face she meets like it or not. Super high prey drive dog. I had some decoys push her and she is unwavering, she will take all the pressure you can give her to get the sleeve. If the decoy drops the sleeve and agitates her defensively she will look at the decoy and bark at the sleeve. It doesn't matter what the decoy does I don't think she'd bite him for real. This female would "mount" the decoy while she was on a bite and hump his leg. But all she wants is that sleeve, completely equipment fixated. There was only one time when she was home with my wife alone and the fedex guy opened our front door and she "screamed" (Yoschy granddaughter) and went for him. My wife closed the door just in time. I have never seen her be aggressive any other time, and I didn't see that time.
Dogs that are locked in prey it can be very difficult to turn on defensively. We have some Police K9's, one in particular that is super high in prey drive, but he has proven himself on the street several times. He actually saved his handlers life in a gunfight. But give this dog a sleeve or your arm and he'll take the sleeve. The table training is stressfull for this dog. Lucky for us the bad guys don't wear burlap.
Raymond,
I answered your question on the other thread. Please do not ruin this thread and cause it to go down in flames. I'm hoping your bigger than that.
Jim
by adlerbach on 26 February 2010 - 21:02
Just a remark---when Strut lowers her ears her drive is going HIGHER and she is not showing stress. This was only her second time on the table but she ran eagerly to that table for her lesson clearly wanting to experience it again. Strut is a sport dog and is not in training for police but this strengthens the quality of her barking and her grips which were always calm and full. She is a dog that loves people and children. Like anything else in dog training, table is a tool that needs an experienced person to make it a good one, Barb
by Slamdunc on 26 February 2010 - 21:02
GSDPACK,
I just posted on the other thread that I use this with our Police dogs and they have all benefited from it. One of the biggest things is the control that you get. You can "turn the dog on" even with the decoy being out of sight with no agitation or stimulation with just a command. And you can "turn off" just as easily. For a Police K9 this can be a huge benefit, it's actually good for sport dogs as well. But is super for K9's. Perhaps one of us is dealing with someone we know has the propensity for violence and is acting calmly, the dog under normal situations will not react aggressively to this. If a command causes the dog to go into immediate serious rage it can be very effective.
Again, it's not for every dog. The dog in the video did great with it and that was an excellent application. The key is knowing how much pressure the dog can take and when to apply it and when to let it off. Like any training.
Jim
I just posted on the other thread that I use this with our Police dogs and they have all benefited from it. One of the biggest things is the control that you get. You can "turn the dog on" even with the decoy being out of sight with no agitation or stimulation with just a command. And you can "turn off" just as easily. For a Police K9 this can be a huge benefit, it's actually good for sport dogs as well. But is super for K9's. Perhaps one of us is dealing with someone we know has the propensity for violence and is acting calmly, the dog under normal situations will not react aggressively to this. If a command causes the dog to go into immediate serious rage it can be very effective.
Again, it's not for every dog. The dog in the video did great with it and that was an excellent application. The key is knowing how much pressure the dog can take and when to apply it and when to let it off. Like any training.
Jim
by Slamdunc on 26 February 2010 - 21:02
Barb,
Sorry this thread went kinda downhill. Your dog is really super. The video is a good example of good training, excellent handling and decoying and the proper use of the table. Some will just not get it and some will. I enjoyed the video.
Jim
Sorry this thread went kinda downhill. Your dog is really super. The video is a good example of good training, excellent handling and decoying and the proper use of the table. Some will just not get it and some will. I enjoyed the video.
Jim
by 4pack on 26 February 2010 - 21:02
Barb, I enjoyed the video of your girl as well. Nice to see other trainers besides my own use the table. It's too bad it gets a bad rap.
by adlerbach on 26 February 2010 - 21:02
Thank you very much Jim. Just got back from training and it was great! Barb
by adlerbach on 26 February 2010 - 21:02
Thank you very much Jim. Just got back from training and it was great! Barb
by Gustav on 26 February 2010 - 22:02
Slamdunc,
Your observations are onpoint. First, this is only the second time this dog has worked the table and her performance was fine as indicated by the final result. People who start a training regiment and expect to see everything perfect when started and NOT a growth process really don't know dogtraining, IMO. Also, people use the table to strengthen different things and for different purposes. Some people just work on grips, some people just work on strengthening the bark, some people just work on putting certain pressures on dogs and having dog become comfortable transitioning drives (some call it channeling drives back and forth leading to a bite). Randy more than knows what he is seeking for this sport dog and when Barba scores the 285 or better with this dog who am I to question the effectiveness of this training. Sport use is different than police use for tables, but again I think the dog is fine and at the end of the day our opinions are not as important as her results in what Barb is striving for...peace!
Your observations are onpoint. First, this is only the second time this dog has worked the table and her performance was fine as indicated by the final result. People who start a training regiment and expect to see everything perfect when started and NOT a growth process really don't know dogtraining, IMO. Also, people use the table to strengthen different things and for different purposes. Some people just work on grips, some people just work on strengthening the bark, some people just work on putting certain pressures on dogs and having dog become comfortable transitioning drives (some call it channeling drives back and forth leading to a bite). Randy more than knows what he is seeking for this sport dog and when Barba scores the 285 or better with this dog who am I to question the effectiveness of this training. Sport use is different than police use for tables, but again I think the dog is fine and at the end of the day our opinions are not as important as her results in what Barb is striving for...peace!
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