Training ERROR or just a good dog - Page 6

There it is...can't have a proper discussion about training, must resort to personal attacks and swearing.

Oh no...a few people in the UK were pissed off...how sad.

Good for you for actually training, enough people on this board know that I do as well and have seen it. Not my fault people have to spell things out for you and you don't know how to internet to figure out who someone is. I don’t have any issue with your training, I told you it was fine, still upsets you that you won’t just admit to yourself that you don’t have the skill or ability to compete at a high level in IPO so YOU CHOOSE to do your back yard personal protection that will never be tested for real. Has nothing to do with IPO being fake or not testing a dog enough, it has everything to do with your inability to train a dog to do it at the level it takes to compete with the big boys that you like to run your mouth about without actually meeting them or their dogs. Easy to do it when they’re not on the board to defend themselves (also very few of them feel the need to defend what they do, the world knows their names, while you stay anonymous).

As Susie stated…you can train a dog to do either one. Most of it really depends on the foundation you lay when the dog is young. I work two littermates…one would be considered the more “civil” while the other one is less so. The more civil dog…who watches the man no matter what and barks straight at the chest in the blind and after outs, was started in IPO later in life and taught to target the sleeve on long bites. Comes fast and hard but tends to pick a side and target whatever way the helper is trying to make the dog go with the sleeve. The one that has been doing IPO since a pup and has competed in multiple national competitions in the US, goes straight for the body on every long bite. Dog’s foundation was done by someone who valued center mass targeting and so the dog still does it…yet when barking the dog is definitely focused on the sleeve because he knows his reward is the sleeve. Foundation was done that way and if the sleeve wasn’t present…dog would go right through the man and just take whatever was left. Littermates…slightly different dogs…but same genetics. Foundation and training is the main difference between the two dogs.

As GSDfan just stated...carrying has absolutely nothing to do with civil/not civil. It's a taught behavior that some dogs are more comfortable with and others aren't. I've seen plenty of dogs retrained to carry a sleeve even though their foundation taught them to spit and go. Truthfully, the majority of dogs that I see who naturally spit the sleeve after the bite...are the insecure ones that can't grasp the rules and are still worried about the helper coming back at them even though the threat is gone.

Truthfully, the majority of dogs that I see who naturally spit the sleeve after the bite...are the insecure ones that can't grasp the rules and are still worried about the helper coming back at them even though the threat is gone.

Well thats as silly as flip flops in a snow storm.

It's not silly...it's the truth. The majority of dogs doing IPO aren't the perfect IPO specimens. Want to be straight and not PC? Look at most SL dogs...high defense, lack of prey...do they spit sleeves because they're strong and want to eat the helper? Doubtful and you can all agree with that. Rarely am I working a dog that's spitting a sleeve because of confidence and wanting to get back at me so bad. The ones I've worked that you all want to call civil and wanting to spit sleeves, after a few weeks of careful work can easily carry without coming back at the helper. I personally don't expect the dog to come at me once the threat is dissipated, if I'm not actively agitating the dog or the handler hasn't commanded an out and turn on command...there is no reason the dog should go after a passive helper.

 

Most times the dogs spitting sleeves have been trained with a foundation of slip only when the handler has the leash, and the helper automatically goes back to agitating the dog forcing the dog to spit and. Nothing special, and I don't diagree with the training protocol...not my cup of tea but I know it's done and done well. If training a green dog that might be sport or might be police/PPD...that foundation is 100% better to do...if training a dog that will 100% be an IPO/sport dog...no reason to do that IMO.

Your baloney does not work with me.

You come back when you can get your ghost dog to work the man in the muzzle over distance, through CO2 in the water etc etc. (yep - back yard training)

It's certainly obvious from a training perspective away from the training manual - you have zero practical experience in executing any form of credible protection dog training.

Look it's easy - rather than dissing stuff you know nowt about - show us how you do it?

You talk enough about how it's done, so here is a crazy suggestion - stop talking start showing?

Think that's fair enough, and would be a lot less embarrassing to boot, or maybe you just don't register embarrassment lol.

Gee

GSDFAN: "You are not teaching the dog it's a "game" you are teaching them there are rules. "

The presentation of rules makes it a game.

The game is:

"Unless they follow the rules they do not get what they want (Praise/approval from handler, relief from correction and or bite"

Thats just semantics. The headset is game, its play time.

At the end of the day this always comes down to definition. Sport civil is only about equipment and working civil is about dominating. Willingness to bite without equipment vs a need to dominate a threat. Spit with ferveor when asked and bite naked vs continual focus on active threat wanting to dominate it. The two are not the same. Its not bad or good just different.

@BW - you truly have surpassed yourself in the last couple of posts, and that is truly saying something.

To say a dog spitting a sleeve out is scared of the helper - WOW.

Surely flashing a sleeve at a crap show line dog in pseudo protection - does not count as - ANYTHING.

Says everything really:

Just to clarify - 

Stop talking DOWN credible protection dog training - something you have NEVER EVER done.

Next time you think you can do better - show us, though judging by your helper show line experience - it will probably end up on - Animals do the funniest things.

Gee

@ Gigante - I completely disagree

The only difference is training, conditioning and exposure.  Dog is the same...which is why in Europe where sleeve titles are mandatory for breeding, you guys still get/import nice civil dogs for your version of training.

Gee stop with the name calling and being rude.  If you cannot articulate with out being rude and insulting then do not post.  Should you not be able to have control over your actions we will help you.

Western Rider

@gsdfan

Im not clear on what you disagree with. Can u unpack that? Everything I have ever read from you is civil just means bite hidden.

Many people have offered a definition to define Civil drive and I would agree with more than one of their definitions. You really need me to define it too here you go....Inherent willingness to engage, target and or bite the man. Most evident in their eye contact and the way the dog watches people in all situations not just bitework training and does not always have to be expressed in aggression but is fast to show aggression if warranted.


There are green civil dogs who lack confidence and therefore lack dominance in the work. Just because a dog shows tons of aggression at the end of a leash while being agitated by a equipment-less decoy does not mean they actually want stay in a fight with and dominate him. Does that make him not civil? No, might be a decent dog that just needs training.

There are civil dogs with strong prey drive and sufficient defense that make good working dogs.

There are civil dogs with sufficient prey and strong defense who also make good working dogs.

Civil is but one component in a working dog...all of those other elements like prey/defense drive, fight drive, confidence, dominance, hardness, resiliency, environmental stability, training etc etc etc have much more to do with the dominance characteristic you want to stuff into "civil".

Not sure what you mean by "sport civil"..... I speak of a civil dog who is trained for sport.

All bite training should be about dominating the threat... that should be a given. The difference is whether the dog will do the same on a man the dog believes does not have equipment. A trained but inherently civil dog will without hesitation.