is this good or bad - Page 7

And, we wonder why there are breed bans.

Didn't read ALL of the postings, but I get the idea of the story/problem.  I will not go into this particular situation but will address the underlying concept.

Training dogs to bite, either on command or on the initiation of a particular circumstance/s (someone approaching your vehicle, someone entering your  home door or your property, etc.) is just not a good practice, in this day of litigation and criminal pursuits by the authorities.  You can be charged with a crime for not taking necessary precautions if you know that your animal is potentially dangerous.

I have previously written on here that I used to train "attack on command" and "attack upon a certain thing happening" type personal protection dogs.  I also wrote that "I quit" doing this type of training, not because of the dogs, but because of the owners.  Dogs can and do make mistakes, but owners (people) make many many more mistakes when it comes to having trained to bite dogs.

I do believe in having a dog for protection, but not trained for protection.  Well, sort of  .  I believe in "thanking" (praising) a dog for it showing what I consider good behavior to certain stimuli, such as a stranger knocking at your door or approaching your vehicle when you and the dog are in it.  This will bring out the natural protectiveness of your dog, helping it to grasp what is desired by its master when certain things happen, but this "praise" has to be followed by a command to "cease" the dogs reaction, when you tell the dog to stop, that everything is "okay".  Is this "training".  Yes, to be sure.  But it is not training in the sense of the word, in a court of law.  It is "manners" in a court of law.  A big difference whebn it comes to liability.  I won't even go into the "conscience" thing of how you will feel when a "bad thing happens" to an innocent person.

I am not going into a lot of detail here, but I am sure that the point is getting across.  It is a hell of a lot better, IMO, to have a dog that will protect you and yours, with its natural family and den protectiveness, than to have a dog "trained" to provide protection, in this day of litigation and criminal prosecution.  Just think about being on a jury in a case whereupon someones dog has chewed up the kid next door who forgot his Ipod in your kitchen after playing with your kids, and he just slipped into the back door to get it, not wanting to disturb you.  Bad judgement on the neighbor kids part?  Sure.  Bad judgement on your part for not having the door locked?  Sure.  But bad judgement for having a dog "trained to attack intruders" in the eyes of a jury?  You bet your pickle!  In a civil trial, the injured party can be up to 49% in the wrong, but if you are in the wrong for 51% in the eyes of a jury, you lose 100%.  Been there, done that.  A little complicated but not really.  It is that simple when it comes to, let's say, a Federal Wronful Death lawsuit.  The kid with the Ipod technically was committing a crime entering your home without permission, but  in a civil case, you are going to lose big time.

Have a GSD, show it through "good boy" or "its alright, stop now" type of commands and praise, as it grows up in your home, just show it you want it to act, and you will have what you want in a family companion and protector, but send it off to be trained to bite, or train it yourself to do that type of thing, and suffer the consequences or your decision, if an unfortunate thing occurs.

Yes, there are situations that require bite training.   Police, military, and serious bodyguard

type "jobs".  But not just for the average household.  There are about 6 1/2 Billion people in this world and I doubt if there are ten million that can handle a trained to bite dog properly.  Rough guesses sure, but it makes the point.  Do the math.  It's like driving a car.  How many "accidents" happen?  Cars have mechanical problems.  But people make mistakes many more times.  The above situation  concerning this thread, is an "accident" waiting to happen.

Okay.  Said my piece about bite training again.  Now, have at it.

YES NENZ COUYLD PICK UP ON HER BIPOLAR.

Shasta- Thank you.  I try to have patience with the beginners as I am gonna be a newbie for a long long time but have learned some good stuff from a lot of good people.  So I try to share what little I can with those that know even less than myself in hopes they too will learn and keep learning.  But of course there's some who ask, don't hear what they wanted and then continue to screw things up even more. lol 

Doright- I agree to some extent but some situations call for a dog you know for certain will fight to the end in a real threat.  If you've ever been victimized or in a potentially dangerous situation you'd probably think differently about the whole "natural protective instinct".  Those situtations you can't just hope or guess your dogs instinct will kick in because you just might find yourself left for dead with a dog that just got his ass kicked too and ran for cover. lol 

I also feel as Gard has stated that not all dogs should do protection training and only dogs that have been properly evaluated by an experienced trainer should be trained to make certain the dog has the nerves and courage to do the real job.

Personally myself I feel that if you've tried to harm me, my family, invade my home and my dog bit you then I'll take my chances with a jury of my peers to determine if it was warranted.  At least my kids and family were alive to tell their side of the story.  Will there be a lawsuit-almost certain of that, will there be much grief-absolutely BUT I think many would agree that it's a lot better than a more tragic ending.  Just my 2 cents.  But we can agree to disagree.

And I always tell people that dogs are nothing but a deterrent. Period. If someone REALLY wants to hurt you, they will and if they have to, they will kill the dog. It is that simple. 

For people who think their dog would "defend" them, most of them are sadly mistaken. And Schutzhund is NOT about teaching a dog to protect someone. It is a sport and is highly stylized at that.

It is, in my opinion, the rare individual who should own a true protection dog. A few months back a woman called me who had bought such a dog for her daughter. For some reason, the daughter did not have the dog and the woman did. She had had the dog for almost three years. Recently, she went out for a walk. A neighbor she knew well and which was also known to the dog, saw them walking by and yelled out to wait for her because she wanted to walk with them. The neighbor then jumped a small fence and ran to the woman who was walking the dog on leash and to the surprise of the owner walking the dog, the dog lept and grabbed the neighbor by the throat, seriously injuring her. The dog was to be euthanized. The neighbor is suing. The owner is heartbroken and soon to be several thousand dollars lighter in the wallet. The dog was sold to her by an outfit in North Carolina, without ANY type of training for the owner. In fact, no one really even knows what training, if any, the alleged protection dog had in the past. It had been around children, friends and neighbors all this time without incident. 

In any case, don't put yourself into a situation where it is hoped a dog will defend you. Otherwise, you just end up with a dead dog and you are probably hurt or killed as well.

Without reading all other replies: My question is you sure he was a show dog and not a police drop out? Nothing against your dog but sometimes dogs trained for police work, or drug sniffing can have bad habits for the home. As a vet tech I have seen many dogs that know German commands because they where police, military dogs or drop outs turned pet. This can be good if you are looking for a guard dog and understand he will sacrifice his life for the safety of his family. This can be bad if the dog’s habits are not truly understood or controlled. Ether way I would say you might want to have him tone it down AND let every one know he has such behaviors. I would also suggest you carry a muzzle with you to the vet’s office or any where you think might be a trigger for him. You don’t want to get sued! and have your dog put down. So 1. Let every one know. I.e. tell your boyfriend, put up a “Beware of dog” sign. 2. Carry a muzzle 3. Get training if you can afford private lessons. Best of luck, I hope with helps.

yes he was a showdog, his family was pure showline. i have some of his showcards and the results of his placing in the ulm germany show when he was a year old are listed here on the database from before i got him. no muzzle needed at the vet's, he likes going there, sits patiently throughout the exam and shots, too, sneaking in a couple licks at her hands and face when he can. our beloved dr. becky is always happy to see us and comments on what good dogs i have. i have a german shepherd crossing sign up outside our door to let anyone who doesn't know us know that we have german shepherds. we have very little company, just my one friend who comes over to split ordering pizza every other week and my boyfriend's two ps2 buddies. i am not letting nenz anywhere near them when they are over, he is under the desk at my feet or at my side elsewhere in the house and now seems to take little notice other than the alerting barks when he hears footsteps on the stairs. i am not allowing him to go to the door and when he realizes that, he stops after a few barks and relaxes and goes to sleep. spunky is the trigger, she is just turning a year and other people agree that he is protecting her, when he barks at people outside. after alternating walks with each dog, i have found he is his old self. if she is not with, anyone can walk up and pet him. i notice he always looks at me before and after doing something. now that i am expressing displeasure with his behavior he is toning it down alot. since i was encouraging it before, he got really carried away with it. every day i am correcting him and i am happy with his progress. again, we have a session with a trainer scheduled this weekend. he is a pretty good deterrent here in this neighborhood. my boyfriend commented he has changed since we moved here, and i pointed out that people react to him differently here. our old neighborhood was much better, i think. people acted different too. anyone could walk right up to him and pat him on the head. here, every time i take him out, every other person acts terrified of him.

 Barklays mom, you may want to go back and read some previous posts. I would personally never advise someone to go around telling everyone their dog bites, and in my area what I"ve heard is it's NOT good to have a Beware of Dog sign. If the dog ever bites someone it's admittance to the fact that you knew the dog would bite. Since all dogs bite (it all depends on the thresh hold) it's probably better to just have some sort of sign saying that there's a dog present, and just handle the dog with caution (verses tell everyone that he may bite). Walking around telling everyone the dog may bite is an open invitation for people to react like he's going to bite and perhaps even CAUSE a bite, Then because you've admitted it, they can come after you even harder. A better plan would be to not put the dog into a situation that would cause a bite in the first place, use a muzzle when necessary, and if people ask if the dog is friendly or not I always state all dogs have teeth (as a previous poster said). Then don't put him in a situation I know he's uncomfortable with (after all, as a good leader, I have certain obligations to the dog, just the same as he has obligations to me). 

When I got out of the military, I went to work for American K9.  Times were a little scary, not having any skills to make a living with, except knowing how to kill people and break things mostly (I was in the infantry most of my eight years), except I did know how to train dogs.  So I got a job working for them.  It was all about making the money.  We practically did not turn down anyone who wanted their dog trained to "bite".  We trained dogs to bite upon command, or upon threat, or upon a certain occurence such as a certain door or window opening.

Of course, not just any ole dog can and should be trained for attack.  But we did.  I did this for one year and was disgusted with the results.  The dogs that were fit for this kind of work were more or less okay, although "accidents" do happen with them also and is usually a lack of proper procedure on the owners part.  But to "make the sales", we trained some peoples family pets to attack on command with bad results.  I quit.  I do not know if they are even in business anymore, but if they or others like them are, then there are dogs being trained to bite, that should not be.  All in pursuit of "the sale".

I regret the year I did this type of work and have reformulated my thinking along those lines, as evidenced on my harping on this subject on this website.  However, I agree that there are those who "need it" (at least in their own minds, as having it available gives someone quite a bit of piece of mind and confidence).  But as Hodie stated, if you are thinking that your dog is going to be more than a deterrent, think again.  Seriously, if I wanted to harm YOU, the dog would be a minor inconvenience, but nothing more.  I am sure that most reading this would know how to deal with the best protection dog if they gave it just a few minutes thought, if they wanted to harm you or I.  A trained dog is a deterrent to a spur of the moment criminal type, but not to a planning ex-husband or career criminal.  I believe that I am a person that can handle a trained to bite dog, but really, don't we all believe that?  Many of us are wrong, IMO.

It is not about the legal subsequences of a trained dog biting a "bad guy".  As Agar stated, I can live with that, come what may.  It is about a trained to bite dog mistake and the subsequent legal and personal regrets that come with that.  I would not argue against someone who stated that in their own situation they NEED this type of dog, but it is like owning a handgun (which I am not found of but find necessary for several reasons).  There is the possibility of an accidental disaster.  At least with a hand gun, it can be put away in a hiding place.  You can not put your trained to bite dog under the mattress.

Bottom line.  Sometimes "they" can be a life saver, although the ones I see actually saving someone as reported on the news, are rarely dogs trained in protection.  Usually just the family pet.  More often than not though, a trained to bite dog is an unnecessary liability, just "purchased" by someone who is scared....................  But, then again, piece of mind is worth something.  Sometimes in life it boils down to "damned if you do and damned if you don't".